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Discussion starter · #42 ·
what camber settings do you recommend for a daily driven hatch STi that has all that suspension work done? what alignment do you have?
I think the biggest factors going into play are:
-the spring rates you have
-the wheel rates
-your current alignment and how you like it
-the handling balance your car has on its current alignment, especially any flaws
-ride height (vs stock, lower is worse)
-your choice in tires.

I assume when you say "full" you mean coilovers, which usually are in the 8k/8k. You know that I am running -3.4' of camber in the front and half that in the rear, or -1.7. I will be going to 8k/9k with a lower rear bar (22/20) from 22/21 which is what I have now, but this actually works well. Tire wear is not a problem. Actually when you have stuff that is very stiff, as you read my alignment post you will see that you can really push the tires (literally) and the front will require that much negative camber. You might want to start with -2.5 and take it from there if all you do is DD though. But even at -3.4 I am not seeing any appreciably uneven wear. Actually it is evening out my wear! The biggest wear thing to worry about is toe more than camber. What can get affected a bit at this camber is braking though. Again it's a trial and error process but knowing your settings and tires would help.
 
the mods are:
KW v3 coilovers: front - 400 lb/in (70 N/mm), rear- 285 lb/in (50 N/mm)
whiteline Com-C strut mounts
22mm rear sway bar
24mm front sway bar
Kartboy endlinks front and rear
front roll center adjust
adjustable rear lower control arms
Mounts & Bushings - Group N engine mounts, Group N tranny mount, Perrin pitch stop, Whiteline rear diff positive power kit inserts
cf driveshaft
ride height is 13-7/8"F, 13-1/2"R, just a little drop
my current alignment is -1.6 front -1.5 rear on stock wheels 18x8.5+55& tires 245/40/r18
in the spring I will be putting on 18x9.5+38 with PSS 265/35/r18 tire.
it feels ok but I haven't tested it with good tires yet, nor pushed it around any corners due to the stock tires.
I will be going in for a corner balance and alignment and trying to get some pointers on what to ask for and if I could improve my current alignment while not also increasing tire wear too drastically.
It is for daily driving only. If I decide to take it to a track I will have another alignment done at that time.
I was going to ask for -1.8F, -1.5R, but would like to hear what advice since you seem to have real life experience with alignments and I have only read about it on the internet.
 
the mods are:
KW v3 coilovers: front - 400 lb/in (70 N/mm), rear- 285 lb/in (50 N/mm)
whiteline Com-C strut mounts
22mm rear sway bar
24mm front sway bar
Kartboy endlinks front and rear
front roll center adjust
adjustable rear lower control arms
Mounts & Bushings - Group N engine mounts, Group N tranny mount, Perrin pitch stop, Whiteline rear diff positive power kit inserts
cf driveshaft
ride height is 13-7/8"F, 13-1/2"R, just a little drop
my current alignment is -1.6 front -1.5 rear on stock wheels 18x8.5+55& tires 245/40/r18
in the spring I will be putting on 18x9.5+38 with PSS 265/35/r18 tire.
it feels ok but I haven't tested it with good tires yet, nor pushed it around any corners due to the stock tires.
I will be going in for a corner balance and alignment and trying to get some pointers on what to ask for and if I could improve my current alignment while not also increasing tire wear too drastically.
It is for daily driving only. If I decide to take it to a track I will have another alignment done at that time.
You indicate you're looking for better tire wear......what type of wear are you getting now? Can you describe the type of driving you do and percentage of each type?

A quick look at your upgrades looks like a moderate setup with no obvious issues (I'm running similar specs w/RCE T2s). The two biggest differences between setups is spring rates (500# frt/rr) and tires. V3 lower rear spring rate can create push (understeer) when driven hard leading to front tire wear. PSS are a great DD tires but can become loose during sustained high speed cornering and susceptable to too high tire temp/psi. If you're just doing aggressive street driving the tires shouldn't be an issue.

In general, for mixed use aggressive street I like -2.0 frt camber and -1.3 rr camber, of course zero toe. This will give good tire wear, acceptable wet weather grip and good handling. As you do more aggressive driving the frt camber can/should become more negative and the rear settings will depend on how loose you like the rear of the car when cornering.
 
thanks for your input, I do just regular daily driving mostly straight line on a mix of even and uneaven roads (NY roads) the hardest turns I take are 360 degree highway on ramps.
this year I'm going to try autoX and would like to have an alignment that Is not too aggressive on the street & autoX capable. I would like to get around 30K out of the tires while daily driving. -1.3R might be a tight fit with the wheels I'm planning to run, so I got this # in my head: -2F,-1.5R, drive around for a couple of months then maybe see if I can decrease - camber in rear without rubbing or increase front -camber a bit if I feel I'm getting too much understeer. is re-adajusting camber after corner balance going to throw off the balance? wondering If I should get the alignment only and hold off on corner balance untill I'm satisfied with the camber settings.
 
thanks for your input, I do just regular daily driving mostly straight line on a mix of even and uneaven roads (NY roads) the hardest turns I take are 360 degree highway on ramps.
this year I'm going to try autoX and would like to have an alignment that Is not too aggressive on the street & autoX capable. I would like to get around 30K out of the tires while daily driving. -1.3R might be a tight fit with the wheels I'm planning to run, so I got this # in my head: -2F,-1.5R, drive around for a couple of months then maybe see if I can decrease - camber in rear without rubbing or increase front -camber a bit if I feel I'm getting too much understeer.
-1.5 rear camber is fine for the street, especially if mostly straight line, it will not cause poor tire wear (still within factory spec). I've run -1.7 to -2 frt camber and not seen any appreciable camber wear.......however if you rarely do aggressive cornering you might want to be closer to the -1.5 setting. I've never ever gotten more than 15km on a set of tires so getting 30k is surreal. If your goal is great mileage and mostly hwy driving you might want to consider running as low as -1.2 frt camber. RCE recommends the following setups for KWs:
Street: -1.0 frt/-1.8 rr camber, Aggressive street: -2 frt/-1.4 rr camber, Track/Autox: -2.7 to -3.0 frt/-1.2 rr camber.
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
the mods are:
KW v3 coilovers: front - 400 lb/in (70 N/mm), rear- 285 lb/in (50 N/mm)
whiteline Com-C strut mounts
22mm rear sway bar
24mm front sway bar
Kartboy endlinks front and rear
front roll center adjust
adjustable rear lower control arms
Mounts & Bushings - Group N engine mounts, Group N tranny mount, Perrin pitch stop, Whiteline rear diff positive power kit inserts
cf driveshaft
ride height is 13-7/8"F, 13-1/2"R, just a little drop
my current alignment is -1.6 front -1.5 rear on stock wheels 18x8.5+55& tires 245/40/r18
in the spring I will be putting on 18x9.5+38 with PSS 265/35/r18 tire.
it feels ok but I haven't tested it with good tires yet, nor pushed it around any corners due to the stock tires.
I will be going in for a corner balance and alignment and trying to get some pointers on what to ask for and if I could improve my current alignment while not also increasing tire wear too drastically.
It is for daily driving only. If I decide to take it to a track I will have another alignment done at that time.
I was going to ask for -1.8F, -1.5R, but would like to hear what advice since you seem to have real life experience with alignments and I have only read about it on the internet.
There are a few issues with this. The first issue with tire wear is that if you put on coilovers without a corner balancing and an alignment, that is the same, though perhaps not as damaging faux pas as putting on an in take, ported TGV's, DP, headers, pump, injectors, rails and a bigger turbo without a tune. Unlike the motor scenario, you won't blow up anything, at least not right away. If the ride height and coilover installation made for screwy alignment specs, your tires could have the same life expectancy as Tuco, "the ugly" character strung up with a noose around his neck tied to a tree branch above, his hands behind his back, standing on a chair, with his share of the gold 10 feet in front of him and left alone to his own devices in the middle of the desert.

I have a hearty criticism for your setup because opinions are like assholes: everybody's got one and yours stinks but mine doesn't. The reason why I feel my opinion is not that stinky is because I made stinky mistakes and lived to tell the tale.

Jayboyd is right in that your wheel rates are off. You are putting too much stiffness up front with both the front spring rates and front sways being stiffer. And the sways are quite a bit up from stock.

I would say you need more spring in the rear and less sway everywhere, like 22/20 or 23/21 or 23/20 though the former would probably make more sense as with Sways a little goes a long way.

Remember the motion ratio of the rear is less so the rear springs are less effective.

I would read the wheel rate calculator on my springs and sways section that I will reference, but such a front heavy wheel rate setup will understeer very heavily and tax the fronts a lot. I would be very aggressive with the front tires negative camber and back off on the rear.

As far as alignment goes, you can fine tune the over or understeer balance with the camber but remember to tame something, if you have the option to increase grip somwhere or decrease grip a different place, it is usually easier to decrease grip somewhere, but better to increase grip somewhere else. What I mean is with making less understeer you can either decrease the front or increase rear camber. Better to decrease the front camber to a more negative setting so that front grips better, especially in such a front wheel rate heavy car otherwise you are settling for an artificial bottle neck that is lower than your car's handling limits would otherwise allow.
 
Jayboyd is right in that your wheel rates are off. You are putting too much stiffness up front with both the front spring rates and front sways being stiffer. And the sways are quite a bit up from stock.

I would say you need more spring in the rear and less sway everywhere, like 22/20 or 23/21 or 23/20 though the former would probably make more sense as with Sways a little goes a long way.

Remember the motion ratio of the rear is less so the rear springs are less effective.

I agree with the rear springs being too soft.

This is what I have, and it can be tuned to be pretty neutral.

KW3s with 350 rate rear springs. I tried 400/400, but found it a little too hard for our winter roads and frost heaved excuses for main streets. So I settled on 400F/350R rates.

I have RCE sways that are set on soft front and rear.

Obviously you can dial in the tranistional over/understeer you want with the KWs low speed compression adjustment, but I was able to get steady-state cornering very neutral as well. If I put the rear sway to stiff it will steady-state oversteer (which is suicide if driving on glare ice), but that does show that I have decent chassis balance.

-items we have in common:
-most bushing upgardes
-COM-C
-roll-center
-adj rear camber


I am at -1.8F and -1.2R for camber (street only, and like it)
I will be getting a compromised track/street alignment soon, which I will run -2.6F and -1.8 rear.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks for the replies, where did you buy the 350 springs for the KWv3, which ones, and did you have to get anything else done (valving), or just swap the springs? What about 22mm bars f/r and set front to stiff and rear to soft (superpro), current WL bar settings are 23.5F/21R. I do like the softer rear spring since I mostly daily drive in NY.
 
Valving is fine, you will need to re-tune your adjustments though, just slightly.

I would get them from here:

Evasive Motorsports | PH: 626.336.3400 Mon-Fri, 9am-6pm PST: Swift Coilover Springs (Pair) - 60mm I.D. / 8.0 inch / 6kgf/mm

The link is the exact ones you want. You want the 8" ones for more linear travel, 7" works, but you might go slightly beyond the designed stroke of the spring.

Also, I have noticed that the rear helper springs on the KWs only gets used at lower ride heights. If your helper spring is completely compressed all the time, then take it out, just adding unneccessary weight.
 
FWIW I am running with GTWorx Bilsteins sport cup kit with RCE Yellows, and a plethora of other mods including braces and bushings/ swaybars. I run currently -2.2 F and -1.7 rear and have not had any issues. I am considering dropping the rear down back to -1.5 to -1.6 though.

I think alignment is completely a trial and error thing as previously stated because everyone drives differently and with different goals in mind. Just best to find somewhere that can work with you on alignments and plan on spending some time up there.

Really digging this thread though. Lots of good info
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
FWIW I am running with GTWorx Bilsteins sport cup kit with RCE Yellows, and a plethora of other mods including braces and bushings/ swaybars. I run currently -2.2 F and -1.7 rear and have not had any issues. I am considering dropping the rear down back to -1.5 to -1.6 though.

I think alignment is completely a trial and error thing as previously stated because everyone drives differently and with different goals in mind. Just best to find somewhere that can work with you on alignments and plan on spending some time up there.

Really digging this thread though. Lots of good info
I'll discuss the non-stock alignment once I get into the springs & sways as well as bushings parts, and at the end. This is true, alignment has to be specifically adjusted to the underlying setup, and at the same time, the parts selected for a setup have to he chosen with the potential to be able to get a certain alignment. For example, if you're going with stiffer springs like a GTWorx Bilstein and RCE yellow setup (very nice OEM like replacement BTW), then one will definitely for sure need less camber in the front to a more negative value into the -2 range which is less than stock. Tire selection also plays a part as well.

The rear should be left alone as it works well in the -1.4 range or so but once your camber starts getting in the -2.5 or less range, you want it about half of what the front is. So -3.0 up front would require -1.5 in the rear. On a coilover spring setup that's not even super stiff, say 8k range, don't be surprised if the car understeers with a value more positive than -3.0, you'll need that low camber because remember a very stiff spring will make the tire work very, very hard.
 
I'll discuss the non-stock alignment once I get into the springs & sways as well as bushings parts, and at the end. This is true, alignment has to be specifically adjusted to the underlying setup, and at the same time, the parts selected for a setup have to he chosen with the potential to be able to get a certain alignment. For example, if you're going with stiffer springs like a GTWorx Bilstein and RCE yellow setup (very nice OEM like replacement BTW), then one will definitely for sure need less camber in the front to a more negative value into the -2 range which is less than stock. Tire selection also plays a part as well.

The rear should be left alone as it works well in the -1.4 range or so but once your camber starts getting in the -2.5 or less range, you want it about half of what the front is. So -3.0 up front would require -1.5 in the rear. On a coilover spring setup that's not even super stiff, say 8k range, don't be surprised if the car understeers with a value more positive than -3.0, you'll need that low camber because remember a very stiff spring will make the tire work very, very hard.
Im a little confused by the last paragraph . Are you basically saying as you add more spring rate i.e. 500#, that you'll need a more negative camber in front, i.e. -1.5 stk, -2.5 with stiffer springs and sticky tires?

I assume that there are 2 different things going on: 1) the spring deflects less for a given cornering load (less camber loss?) 2) the stiffer springs transfer more weight to the tire when cornering than a soft spring there for the tire sees more deflection/squirm. If correct then why would more negative camber be needed?
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
Im a little confused by the last paragraph . Are you basically saying as you add more spring rate i.e. 500#, that you'll need a more negative camber in front, i.e. -1.5 stk, -2.5 with stiffer springs and sticky tires?

I assume that there are 2 different things going on: 1) the spring deflects less for a given cornering load (less camber loss?) 2) the stiffer springs transfer more weight to the tire when cornering than a soft spring there for the tire sees more deflection/squirm. If correct then why would more negative camber be needed?
Im a little confused by the last paragraph . Are you basically saying as you add more spring rate i.e. 500#, that you'll need a more negative camber in front, i.e. -1.5 stk, -2.5 with stiffer springs and sticky tires?

I assume that there are 2 different things going on: 1) the spring deflects less for a given cornering load (less camber loss?) 2) the stiffer springs transfer more weight to the tire when cornering than a soft spring there for the tire sees more deflection/squirm. If correct then why would more negative camber be needed?
You need less camber (or more negative camber) all around, particularly the front tires which work harder as you up the wheel rates because you are reaching higher speeds which eventually will increase body roll. Remember that the kinetic energy and angular momentum goes up as a square of the speed. So taking the corner at 70 instead of 65 with your RCE blacks and performance alignment is a nice hop up. Now get quality dampers like GT Worx/Bilsteins, full bushings and sways, and you might get to 75mph. But even though the speed increase from each mod set is the same, the step up in kinetic energy from 70-75 is more than 65-70. So you eventually reach more body roll and compression because the limit is higher, and the forces are higher to push the lateral suspension down. Maybe not as much as stock, but enough.

Furthermore, the tire will be under more duress; read my alignment post again but basically it is pushed laterally harder. This is why for example coilover springs would not work well on the OEM Dunlops (too soft) and while Michelin Pilot Super Sports are OK, they can.... how shall we say, push far from the sidewall:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...750293735063932&set=a.750293505063955.1073741856.100002499369904&type=3&theater

That's with me using -3.4' of camber.

So this is why as the springs go up, you also need stiffer tires to match them.

Lastly when using Hoosiers in particular, you need lots of negative camber because the tires are actually cone shaped to begin with to account race teams use them with lots of negative camber and because of the higher speeds they are capable of. Actually Hoosiers will wear prematurely, unevenly and deliver poor traction w/ McPherson strut setups with more than -3.0 degrees of camber. It needs to be -3.0 or less to really work.
 
So I read through your entire post on modding and the alignment portion about 3 times now. And you mention that the first step = Driver mod. Check. I'm doing an HPDE instructed 2 day course in June.

I'm still on stock suspension on my 2012 STi hatchback on stock size Michelin Pilot Sports or whatever they are called. I have done minor engine mods (catted DP, SPT catback and protune 302WHP, 356 ft/lb torque). Changes to driveline are kartboy short shifter with all the bushings, group N tranny mount, group N engine mounts, group N pitchstop and TiC tranny cross memeber bushings. Car is my daily driver, and I will probably only be doing 2ish HPDEs a year. But even reading this I'm still a bit lost as to what the initial performance alignment should be on a stock suspension. correct me if I'm wrong, but with stock suspension a 'performance alignment" should be 1. Zero Toe Front and Rear, 2. don't jack with Caster, and 3. -1.4F/-1.4R Camber?

I really don't plan on making anymore suspension mods until I've done a few HPDEs.

Thanks for doing this write up and can't wait to see the rest of it, but any advice you could give me I'm all ears.
 
Some suspension tuning thoughts:

At times I feel as though my car is too stiff... We all start out with the mindset, instilled by marketing, that keeping the car super flat and having stiff suspension is the way to do things. My STi feels unflappable, direct and just poised as hell, though I think I still haven't found the right balance between front and rear. It's like the front of the car reacts at a different rate than the rear, and it's sometimes unnerving.

I drive my GF's WRX every other day to/from work, and aside from her using my OEM rear sway, her car is stock. I can easily feel when her car rolls and know what it's doing. My STi will remain flat and solid, while the WRX will lean a bit, but that isn't a bad thing because I know that once it leans and settles, it is very predictable. My STi doesn't have that predictable lean; it's like you get to that corner point that you expect the lean, and instead the car stays flat and will need to readjust and be pointed again to finish the corner. As crazy as it sounds, I'd much rather have some body roll instead so I knew what was happening.

The limits on the WRX are a lot lower, and the understeer more pronounced. My STi can do corners at a higher speed than the WRX, and I think that's where the aftermarket mods pay off the most. But despite that, the WRX is easier for me to be smooth. It's weird, but at times I think I've over done my car haha
 
Some suspension tuning thoughts:

At times I feel as though my car is too stiff... We all start out with the mindset, instilled by marketing, that keeping the car super flat and having stiff suspension is the way to do things. My STi feels unflappable, direct and just poised as hell, though I think I still haven't found the right balance between front and rear. It's like the front of the car reacts at a different rate than the rear, and it's sometimes unnerving.

I drive my GF's WRX every other day to/from work, and aside from her using my OEM rear sway, her car is stock. I can easily feel when her car rolls and know what it's doing. My STi will remain flat and solid, while the WRX will lean a bit, but that isn't a bad thing because I know that once it leans and settles, it is very predictable. My STi doesn't have that predictable lean; it's like you get to that corner point that you expect the lean, and instead the car stays flat and will need to readjust and be pointed again to finish the corner. As crazy as it sounds, I'd much rather have some body roll instead so I knew what was happening.

The limits on the WRX are a lot lower, and the understeer more pronounced. My STi can do corners at a higher speed than the WRX, and I think that's where the aftermarket mods pay off the most. But despite that, the WRX is easier for me to be smooth. It's weird, but at times I think I've over done my car haha
I have owned both an 05 and now an 11 STI and both with substantial suspension mods including coil-overs. I find that the GR chassis simply isn't as well balanced as the GD or at least I can't get mine as balanced as I'd like. Recently read an article that seemed to shed some light on this observation. Basically the writer commented that bc the GD had McPherson struts at both ends of the car the car is more balanced or said differently the front and rear share the same suspension characteristics and tend to reach their limits at both ends more closely than a mixed suspension setup. The GR chassis has 2 different suspension designs front and rear, therefore they react differently to a given situation. This tends to compromise confidence bc you're always trying to optimize the balance and it is simply impossible to achieve the desired balance. You can narrow the gap but they are inherently different.

I have found that the GD was simply the best for handling tight turns and always gave me the utmost confidence. The GR is fast and a better overall car but when it comes down to balance and confidence at the limits, the GD simply wins.
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Some suspension tuning thoughts:

At times I feel as though my car is too stiff... We all start out with the mindset, instilled by marketing, that keeping the car super flat and having stiff suspension is the way to do things. My STi feels unflappable, direct and just poised as hell, though I think I still haven't found the right balance between front and rear. It's like the front of the car reacts at a different rate than the rear, and it's sometimes unnerving.

I drive my GF's WRX every other day to/from work, and aside from her using my OEM rear sway, her car is stock. I can easily feel when her car rolls and know what it's doing. My STi will remain flat and solid, while the WRX will lean a bit, but that isn't a bad thing because I know that once it leans and settles, it is very predictable. My STi doesn't have that predictable lean; it's like you get to that corner point that you expect the lean, and instead the car stays flat and will need to readjust and be pointed again to finish the corner. As crazy as it sounds, I'd much rather have some body roll instead so I knew what was happening.

The limits on the WRX are a lot lower, and the understeer more pronounced. My STi can do corners at a higher speed than the WRX, and I think that's where the aftermarket mods pay off the most. But despite that, the WRX is easier for me to be smooth. It's weird, but at times I think I've over done my car haha
Yes, maybe. It depends on a few things like ride height, alignment, dampers, wheel rate front/rear balance particularly from being over-swayed and of course, bushings. I would look into these and make sure you are stock ride height to give the best dynamic alignment, make sure you have plenty of negative camber up front and not too little in the rear. Make sure your wheel rates are 60/40 or so (there is a STi wheel rate post I Will link eventually). Make sure you have good, quality dampers like GT Worx/Bilsteins or some good coilovers. Make sure you have the full bushings in driveline and suspension as well so you can feel where the limit is. Car becomes more predictable.

Thing is this, the more you mod, the more you have to mod to properly "tune it". Better to start with bushings, then springs, or springs and dampers etc. What bushings and dampers are you running?
 
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