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Toivonen, what do you think of stanced cars? ;)

All jokes aside, fantastic writeup thus far! I'm on Eibach 1" lowering springs and have a 22mm rear sway bar in. Neutral alignment, around -1.2F and -1R. I get the chewed up front tires. Any recommendations for the setup?
 
Double your front camber to start.
 
owns 2020 Subaru STI
Discussion starter · #63 ·
Toivonen, what do you think of stanced cars? ;)

All jokes aside, fantastic writeup thus far! I'm on Eibach 1" lowering springs and have a 22mm rear sway bar in. Neutral alignment, around -1.2F and -1R. I get the chewed up front tires. Any recommendations for the setup?
Where are your front tires chewed up, inside or outside?

Basically I recommend going back to 100% stock. A Rear sway throws off your wheel rates unless you are running very stiff front springs and soft rears, but then you start lifting tires and overtaxing the rear outside tire so you give up huge rear traction anyway in terms of how much gas you can give on slow corner exit. Plus lowering the car throws off your alignment and makes it persistently bad. Look up why or wait until I progress this thread but the mods you made might make the car seem nicer away from the limit or driven gently at low speed, but actually lower the limit. I bet back to back on autocross a 100% stock STi, especially with just a performance alignment will be faster than yours.

But basically the front should have twice the negative camber of the rear.
 
I posted this question a while back but I think it got lost in the wash.

So I read through your entire post on modding and the alignment portion about 3 times now. And you mention that the first step = Driver mod. Check. I'm doing an HPDE instructed 2 day course in June.

I'm still on stock suspension on my 2012 STi hatchback on stock size Michelin Pilot Sports or whatever they are called. I have done minor engine mods (catted DP, SPT catback and protune 302WHP, 356 ft/lb torque). Changes to driveline are kartboy short shifter with all the bushings, group N tranny mount, group N engine mounts, group N pitchstop and TiC tranny cross memeber bushings. Car is my daily driver, and I will probably only be doing 2ish HPDEs a year. But even reading this I'm still a bit lost as to what the initial performance alignment should be on a stock suspension. correct me if I'm wrong, but with stock suspension a 'performance alignment" should be 1. Zero Toe Front and Rear, 2. don't jack with Caster, and 3. -1.4F/-1.4R Camber?

I really don't plan on making anymore suspension mods until I've done a few HPDEs.

Thanks for doing this write up and can't wait to see the rest of it, but any advice you could give me I'm all ears.
 
I posted this question a while back but I think it got lost in the wash.

So I read through your entire post on modding and the alignment portion about 3 times now. And you mention that the first step = Driver mod. Check. I'm doing an HPDE instructed 2 day course in June.

I'm still on stock suspension on my 2012 STi hatchback on stock size Michelin Pilot Sports or whatever they are called. I have done minor engine mods (catted DP, SPT catback and protune 302WHP, 356 ft/lb torque). Changes to driveline are kartboy short shifter with all the bushings, group N tranny mount, group N engine mounts, group N pitchstop and TiC tranny cross memeber bushings. Car is my daily driver, and I will probably only be doing 2ish HPDEs a year. But even reading this I'm still a bit lost as to what the initial performance alignment should be on a stock suspension. correct me if I'm wrong, but with stock suspension a 'performance alignment" should be 1. Zero Toe Front and Rear, 2. don't jack with Caster, and 3. -1.4F/-1.4R Camber?

I really don't plan on making anymore suspension mods until I've done a few HPDEs.

Thanks for doing this write up and can't wait to see the rest of it, but any advice you could give me I'm all ears.
You're pretty much spot on with #1 and #2.

#3 will only focus on the front camber, as the rear can't be adjusted w/ stock hardware. For the front, try to max out the stock bolts. Aftermarket camber bolts should allow you a little more negative adjustment too. What is a good # to be at? I can't give you a 100% best value because I don't have enough seat time to test.

Since the car is your daily, adding in a ton of negative front camber will A) accelerate wear on the insides of your tires and B) you'll lose some straight line accel/braking grip due to the reduction of your contact patch. The tradeoff is better contact patch and traction when cornering and the resultant positive camber is gained due to the suspension design. I don't think you have to worry about wear too much with the stock bolts maxxed, nor even camber bolts. I'm at -1.6 and things are looking good :tup: Just rotate tires every other oil change to keep wear even.
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
Great info...as always.
What motor mounts are you using?? I would look for myself but I am unable to view your build thread.
That's because I deleted mine, I never really had one to begin with. At any rate I have the group N motor and transmission mounts as this keeps noise very manageable, and Super Pro everything else except for the shifter bushings which are Cobb.
 
Another extremely educational post. This latest addition is making me feel like a genius. Some local subie owners were suggesting I do sway bars and endlinks before my first HPDE in June. But I mentioned to them, before I read this post, that I wanted to get rid of the sloppiness first so that I could feel everything better. So a couple of months ago I installed all the shifter and linkage bushings (the joint kartboy/TiC package) and Group N tranny mount. And I have the group N engine mounts and TiC tranny cross member bushings waiting to be installed.

Question #1: Are tranny cross member bushings and what you call Gearbox Cross Member Isolator mount the same thing?

Question #2: You mentioned both "Rear Subframe Inserts and Whiteline rear differential rear mount bushing and/or inserts." Does the Whiteline Rear Diff Positive Power Kit Inserts contain both of these?

******Nevermind. Had a derp moment. No sleep for 34 hours will do that. Found the Whiteline Rear Positive traction kit for the Subframe. So both kits I'm guessing would satisfy #7, #8 in post #3, correct?******
 
My favorite, most noticeable driveline mods so far have been:

13:1 steering rack + Super Pro steering rack bushings + Cusco Steering Rack Brace + Super Pro Roll Center adjustment kit

I had them done all at once, and the difference in driving feel is tremendous. Utterly changes the car, makes it much more "heavy and deliberate" to drive, giving it a very upscale feeling. I'm also on RCE Blacks and Bilsteins and pretty much everything listed by the OP, but the list above put my car over the top.

Thanks for the replies, where did you buy the 350 springs for the KWv3, which ones, and did you have to get anything else done (valving), or just swap the springs? What about 22mm bars f/r and set front to stiff and rear to soft (superpro), current WL bar settings are 23.5F/21R. I do like the softer rear spring since I mostly daily drive in NY.
I'm pretty much running the same bars (23.5/22), and it's a pretty decent setup, but am tempted to try out the Whiteline 22/20 combo set to 22.5/21. I can pretty much see myself owning 2 sets of sways until I nail down exactly where I want to be. That's what makes suspension tuning fun/frustrating.

I had my Whiteline 22 rear bar set into the 21mm hole, but they end links were torqued in kind of a wonky angle. So I set them back to 22mm, and found that the Kartboy end link bushing was pretty jacked up (and they clunk now, I'll probably have to order a replacements). That tells me that due to the additional strain on the end link to reach that hole the bar probably was preloaded and was actually stiffer than it should have been. Being back in the middle 22mm hole, the car handles a lot more flexibly now :tup:

So yeah, want to try out 22.5/21 next and see how it feels :)
 
Toivonen, just read your latest post about chassis stiffening and agree with everything you've said and the recommended approach to stiffen chassis before attacking the suspension.

There is one brace that you didn't mention but that I have found to noticeably reduce chassis flex and that is the Cusco Power Center brace. This is made up of 2 braces that parallel the drive shaft and bolt into the frame rails and uni-body. They are an easy bolt on and have made a substantial difference in the "tightness" of the car during cornering.

One caution on adding both adjustable lower control arms (w/spherical end connection) and the rear dif plus rear subframe inserts....they will noticeably magnify NVH from the tires and rear dif.

Sway Bars:
I have a question regarding your comments on sway bars/springs and wheel rates. First of all I absolutely agree with you that sway bars should NOT be the first thing that is changed and that 23mm front equivalent bar size is about as big as you should go unless it is a specialized application/suspension. The area where there seems to be the most discussion is around the rear bar sizing or said differently the front/rear sizing. You've made some statements about mis- matching the wheel rates with the car's natural weight bias and that generally means that the rear bar should be 2mm smaller.

I'm running 500 # spring rates on RCE T2s and Super Pro 22mm frt/rr bars but when I do my wheel calculations my figures with these components favors a 22mm rear bar setting vs a 21mm. I also find the car to be more stable in cornering with this setup......can you shed some light/opinions on this?

Springs = 500 #-in, Sway bars 22mm Super Pro frt/rr, all of the same bracing as you have, car corner balanced 50.5/49.5%, wt = 3689lbs with 57% frt/43% rear..

Wheel Rate calculations;

Front wheel rate swaybar + spr......Rear wheel rate swaybar + spr......Total..........% frt/rr

Frt@23 mm setting/rear@21 mm setting/total/% frt 1095/670/1765............62/38

...................................................@ 22mm setting
1095 ..........................................760...................................... 1855...........59/41*


....................................................@ 23mm setting

1095...........................................880.......................................1975...........55/45


I have driven w/23mm rear settings and it is clearly too much bar (losing rear grip) and the 21mm "feels" a little soft with more roll than I'd care for. The 22mm seems to be the closest setup using the wheel spring rate calculations and the overall feel. (I used the thread from Mind as the basis for the calculations so I had to estimate rates for the Super Pro bars but I think they are within a few % of the figures he used for other brands of similar size.)

Do these calculations make sense (accurate) with what you've used and do you have any observations?
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
Another extremely educational post. This latest addition is making me feel like a genius. Some local subie owners were suggesting I do sway bars and endlinks before my first HPDE in June. But I mentioned to them, before I read this post, that I wanted to get rid of the sloppiness first so that I could feel everything better. So a couple of months ago I installed all the shifter and linkage bushings (the joint kartboy/TiC package) and Group N tranny mount. And I have the group N engine mounts and TiC tranny cross member bushings waiting to be installed.

Question #1: Are tranny cross member bushings and what you call Gearbox Cross Member Isolator mount the same thing?

Question #2: You mentioned both "Rear Subframe Inserts and Whiteline rear differential rear mount bushing and/or inserts." Does the Whiteline Rear Diff Positive Power Kit Inserts contain both of these?

******Nevermind. Had a derp moment. No sleep for 34 hours will do that. Found the Whiteline Rear Positive traction kit for the Subframe. So both kits I'm guessing would satisfy #7, #8 in post #3, correct?******
Yes, for HPDE the stiffer driveline will help as much or more than stiffer sways and enlinks because it gives better potential to increase your cornering by 0.01g or so, but more importantly, it gives you the sensitivity to know sooner and faster when you're getting in trouble, and makes the handling control inputs more precise. IMHO that is better than less roll resistance which may or may not increase, and likely will decrease your lateral G's without spring upgrades and a more aggressive alignment.

I don't know about the Whiteline's, it's just that my mechanic did not like the Super Pro's and did not feel like removing the whole rear subframe and charging me for the Super Pro's I brought in so he just did the Whiteline inserts which were more cost effective. There are different kinds out there but throwing out all the possibilities, it is up to the reader to research and ask questions with their goals in mind.
 
Yes, for HPDE the stiffer driveline will help as much or more than stiffer sways and enlinks because it gives better potential to increase your cornering by 0.01g or so, but more importantly, it gives you the sensitivity to know sooner and faster when you're getting in trouble, and makes the handling control inputs more precise. IMHO that is better than less roll resistance which may or may not increase, and likely will decrease your lateral G's without spring upgrades and a more aggressive alignment.

I don't know about the Whiteline's, it's just that my mechanic did not like the Super Pro's and did not feel like removing the whole rear subframe and charging me for the Super Pro's I brought in so he just did the Whiteline inserts which were more cost effective. There are different kinds out there but throwing out all the possibilities, it is up to the reader to research and ask questions with their goals in mind.
Thanks for the reply. The ease of installation is what got me on the Whitelines. I plan on doing the rest of the drivetrain upgrades in my garage, so not removing the whole rear subframe was a huge plus. And the price is awesome as well. Hopefully have them all done first week of April when I have some extra days off. Then I get to test them out in May at the Tail of the Dragon/Annual Boxer Takeover before my first HPDE last week of June. That will also give me enough time to test out the Hawk rotors and HPS pads I've got coming. Thanks again for the great info. Looking forward to the rest.
 
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You rock Toivonen!!! Thanks for the post(s), it really aided in my understanding of MacPherson vs. Double Wishbone a lot better.

Currently on stock suspension. Recently got a performance alignment, zero toe all around, maxed out the fronts at -1.4 and rear is stuck at -1.5. Def made a hell of a difference already. After reading through the section about alignment, it seems like going even further with the negative camber in the front would be ideal. Would you recommend picking up camber bolts prior to my next alignment? Seems like $35 for the Whiteline kit would be able to get the fronts with more negative camber than the rear. Would going -2.0 in the front reduce understeer significantly?

What about tire wear? The -1.4 seems to have counteracted the outside wear from the MacPherson strut compression issue. Would -2.0 in the front start showing signs of inside wear for a daily? Or the better question, how much negative camber could I go in the fronts before uneven tire wear will start to be obvious.

The 2015+ steering rack def sounds like it's my next mod. If I'm not lowering the vehicle, it doesn't seem like I need the Roll-Center Adjuster kit do I?

Thanks in advance
 
Discussion starter · #79 ·
Subscribing

You rock Toivonen!!! Thanks for the post(s), it really aided in my understanding of MacPherson vs. Double Wishbone a lot better.

Currently on stock suspension. Recently got a performance alignment, zero toe all around, maxed out the fronts at -1.4 and rear is stuck at -1.5. Def made a hell of a difference already. After reading through the section about alignment, it seems like going even further with the negative camber in the front would be ideal. Would you recommend picking up camber bolts prior to my next alignment? Seems like $35 for the Whiteline kit would be able to get the fronts with more negative camber than the rear. Would going -2.0 in the front reduce understeer significantly?

What about tire wear? The -1.4 seems to have counteracted the outside wear from the MacPherson strut compression issue. Would -2.0 in the front start showing signs of inside wear for a daily? Or the better question, how much negative camber could I go in the fronts before uneven tire wear will start to be obvious.

The 2015+ steering rack def sounds like it's my next mod. If I'm not lowering the vehicle, it doesn't seem like I need the Roll-Center Adjuster kit do I?

Thanks in advance
Any more negative camber in the front will allow your car to reach "more than stock speeds" to the point where body roll can be a problem and it speeds around corners faster than the suspension can handle. I would leave the camber alone for now and focus on the steering and driveline as in "stage 2".

Also if you have money kicking around do some HPDE. The season just started. Look at the various autocrosses, car clubs or high performance driving schools in your area. IF you live in New England, do the Lime Rock open autocrosses or ADSI. Look up what these are anyway.

The next step is springs, but they will prematurely wear your already mediocre stock dampers. Koni inserts are just meh. See what you want to do to the car, but you might be happy with the full driveline bushinds, the steering upgrades and some basic chassis bracing.

At that point then you might consider coilovers or the GT/Worx Bilstein set with the RCE springs. The latter gives you year round streetable near coilover like shocks/springs, then get camber plates in the front and dial in another degree or so of negative camber. Or do the reasearch and call around for coilovers but I strongly recommend not driving them (much) in winter so if you live in the rust belt be prepared and have a "snow" car.

You are right that the camber counteracted the problems in the stock suspension. How much is a question of taste and how the car will be driven, how stiff the suspension, and how sticky the tire. The more each of these are, the more negative it should be starting with -1.5 and going up with that setup.

Leave the sways alone. Fastest STi's might run without sways and super stiff springs or they actually decrease the rear sway using the OEM base Impreza sway at 16mm! Or just like another post, with stiff springs might just up the front sway to 22mm. Sways should be the last, last, last handling mod you do, even after adjusting tire pressures because they cause unnatural weight transfer and overload the outside tire while risking to lift the front. So if anything a sway benefits the end of the car that is heavier to keep it planted and not create a crazy contact patch, not the other way around (as in the rear).
 
I always enjoy re-reading all the stages you've posted so far. I just finished doing all the driveline and suspension bushings/inserts (engine, pitch stop and tranny mounts, gearbox bushings, rear subframe and rear diff inserts) and love the way the car stays horizontal when turning while accelerating and the car feels much more planted in WOT straight line acceleration.

My next question is, if I were to go -1.4ish on the fronts would there be any wear issues on long road trips. I typically do a few road trips a year of roughly 2000 miles each and was wondering if -1.4 on the fronts would wear poorly on the tires at interstate speeds around 80 mph
 
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