[yamahaSHO]

I have no desire to go to the Northeast. However, going for a drive is not the data I am interested in.

 

[uschearak]

Come visit me in RI and we'll have some delicious low carb treats and Italian red wine after going for a drive!

I thought the only wine you had up there was from buying a corsa exhaust:rofl: jk jk ilu

 

[killerbmotorsport]

My "knock-off" has been excellent and still the best thing I did to my car. It has done so well, that even though I would like to try a KillerB, I can't get myself to pay the additional money to likely find out my performance hasn't changed.

Maybe if I recover enough selling the SwainTech "knock-off", I'll opt for the 2-bolt version. The material and warranty would be nice though... Though, I'd have to send it off for coating again and SwainTech is slow.

I used to run a GPMoto, many years ago and thought it was the cats meow. Compared to OEM ANY EL manifold is (should be) better.

I'm right there with you though. If I wasn't making headers would I buy ours? It's a big chunk of change. For some products I like bang for the buck and others I want to put on the best part money can buy. I would probably buy good used to increase the bang/buck. I don't have a problem buying quality products that are in good used condition.

that 2-2.5 months is for uncoated headers, add another 15 days + shipping time to that if you want swaintech...or at least thats what i was told.

I hope you dont think im knocking your product...I absolutely believe its the best product out there, with exception to inconel headers.

You make a valid point. 15 business days additional for the multi-layer ceramic coating (Swain Tech).

It's a good debate, I don't mind.

We covered Inconel, how do you feel they are better? Just in the material toughness?

The question people have to ask themselves is what is the best value? Honestly, tomei, ets, etc. all make high value headers with ets giving them a lifetime warranty. The gains of killer b vs others hasnt been posted here, if they have I, and im sure many others, would love to see it. So until then, the gains are miniscule at best (vs other headers).

Let me google that for you...

Last week I had a customer contact me with some dyno info on his car and another 'similar' setup on the same dyno, same tuner. Since there have been some other comparisons I thought I'd throw this out there too...

Year: 2006 (IWSTI: billys06sti)
Wheel HP: 381 @ 20.5psi
Wheel TQ: 380 @ 20.5psi
Ambient Temp: 90
Humidity: ?
Date: 7-20-2012
Turbo: Blouch Dominator 1.5xtr 10cm
Intercooler: Spearco
Injectors: DW 850cc
Intake/Inlet: Perrin inlet, KS Tech 73mm CAI
Headers: Killer B Motorsport
Uppipe: Killer B Motorsport
Downpipe: 3" catted
CBE: MadDad Whisper 3"
Other Power Mods: 131k miles

Year: 2007 (IWSTI: SubieEngineer)
Wheel HP: 382 @ 22.5psi
Wheel TQ: 380 @ 22.5psi
Ambient Temp: 90°
Humidity: 28%
Date: 8-31-2012
Turbo: Blouch Dom 1.5 XTR w/ 10cm Exhaust Housing (Ceramic Coated Hotside)
Intercooler: ETS TMIC
Injectors: ID 1000cc (w/Walbro 255)
Intake/Inlet: APS 70mm CAI (GrimmSpeed Ceramic Coated), Gimmick AfterMAF, Perrin Turbo Inlet
Headers: Tomei ELH
Uppipe: Tomei (matched to the ELH)
Downpipe: Cobb Catted, tapers to 2.75" (don't ask)
CBE: Cobb, full 3"
Other Power Mods: TopSpeed RR.5 Motor, GrimmSpeed 3-Port EBCS, GrimmSpeed 3mm Phenolic Spacers, KS Tech Airpump Delete, 1-Step Colder Plugs, Crawford V2 AOS

Here's another link to a GT-Spec comparison (essentially another JDM style knock-off), although a higher HP setup. More power equals more gains.

Killer B Holy Header vs GT Spec Header

You want to find more. seek out shop's facebook, instagram, etc... you will find more on those more discrete channels.

.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I used to run a GPMoto, many years ago and thought it was the cats meow. Compared to OEM ANY EL manifold is (should be) better.

I'm right there with you though. If I wasn't making headers would I buy ours? It's a big chunk of change. For some products I like bang for the buck and others I want to put on the best part money can buy. I would probably buy good used to increase the bang/buck. I don't have a problem buying quality products that are in good used condition.

My point is that I don't think I'll show a gain, at all. In addition, I don't see the Invidia "knock-off" I have as anything that is not quality. My ONLY concern is cracking down the road, where I won't be covered.

Let me google that for you...



Here's another link to a GT-Spec comparison (essentially another JDM style knock-off), although a higher HP setup. More power equals more gains.

Killer B Holy Header vs GT Spec Header

You want to find more. seek out shop's facebook, instagram, etc... you will find more on those more discrete channels.

.

FWIW, I've taken two identical cars (w/ identical mods) and produced the same power from each. One was running about 1.5 PSI less than the other.

 

[killerbmotorsport]

My point is that I don't think I'll show a gain, at all. In addition, I don't see the Invidia "knock-off" I have as anything that is not quality. My ONLY concern is cracking down the road, where I won't be covered.

Speculation of course, on either fronts. You don't know.

Hard to argue that a non symmetrical design will perform as well as one that is symmetrical. It's the same argument, although to a much lesser extent, that UEL and EL do not perform that differently. I have no problems with Invidia, we use some of their things from time to time on shop cars.

Definitely don't believe what data I present. Search out your own if you care enough to, or be content with what you've got (nothing wrong with either). If you're still skeptical, you always will be until you find out for yourself.

FWIW, I've taken two identical cars (w/ identical mods) and produced the same power from each. One was running about 1.5 PSI less than the other.

I've produced plots with specs, you have them to share too?

And did one spool 500 RPMs sooner, or make 50 more ft/lbs at 4,000 RPMs? IMO this is worth a lot more than peak numbers.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Speculation of course, on either fronts. You don't know.

Hard to argue that a non symmetrical design will perform as well as one that is symmetrical. It's the same argument, although to a much lesser extent, that UEL and EL do not perform that differently. I have no problems with Invidia, we use some of their things from time to time on shop cars.

Definitely don't believe what data I present. Search out your own if you care enough to, or be content with what you've got (nothing wrong with either). If you're still skeptical, you always will be until you find out for yourself.

I've done lots of searching on parts across the board (always do before doing anything that has already been done) for years and is why I still do not think I would see a gain, especially not anything worth twice the price. Send me one and I'll do a back to back. It does not have to be symmetrical pipes for the a well made 'equal' length header to perform.

I've produced plots with specs, you have them to share too?

I'm sure if I look hard enough, I can find maps and their logs too. I've tuned a lot of cars, so they're buried on my server somewhere. If you look hard enough, I have probably posted them here a time or two.

And did one spool 500 RPMs sooner, or make 50 more ft/lbs at 4,000 RPMs? IMO this is worth a lot more than peak numbers.

No, they were exactly the same parts on the cars. My point was missed...

 

[uschearak]

I used to run a GPMoto, many years ago and thought it was the cats meow. Compared to OEM ANY EL manifold is (should be) better.

I'm right there with you though. If I wasn't making headers would I buy ours? It's a big chunk of change. For some products I like bang for the buck and others I want to put on the best part money can buy. I would probably buy good used to increase the bang/buck. I don't have a problem buying quality products that are in good used condition.



You make a valid point. 15 business days additional for the multi-layer ceramic coating (Swain Tech).

It's a good debate, I don't mind.

We covered Inconel, how do you feel they are better? Just in the material toughness?



Let me google that for you...



Here's another link to a GT-Spec comparison (essentially another JDM style knock-off), although a higher HP setup. More power equals more gains.

Killer B Holy Header vs GT Spec Header

You want to find more. seek out shop's facebook, instagram, etc... you will find more on those more discrete channels.

.

Yeah so this is the problem I ran into when trying to compare...different dates, different mods, etc. all are variables in the graphs. In a perfect world we would see the same car, same day, same boost, etc. to limit the number af variables to just the one mod in question. There are also correction factors, blah blah blah. My point is that the gains are usually noise in the results.

I believe that claims made should have references/sources/documentation to back them up. $800 more "because i say so." is not a good enough reason for me. I do however see a trend that killer b has the best design as well as 321 SS being a better material. How much better is up for debate.

the inconel is great for strength, and weight reduction. your geometry in inconel could be best case scenario, if money was no object...

 

[uschearak]

as SHO stated earlier, i would love if you sent me a set, and I will pay for the tuner to run a back to back dyno without changing the mods or even unhooking the car from the dyno. I will happily send them to you, and/or post them here. I currently have the ETS headers w/ a gtx3576 rotated, fmic, speed density, etc. If you were going to see gains, it would be here

 

[Beezupra]

Reading other threads I came across peeps suggesting adding fuel pump and injectors to the mod list If going with ELH and DP. I was hoping to hold my power mod list at AP pro tune, catted DP, ELH, (stock exhaust). Do I really "need" to look at pump, injectors or anything else for properly implementing the above? Hoping not, trying to avoid mod-creep : )

 

[mheyman]

My point is that I don't think I'll show a gain, at all. In addition, I don't see the Invidia "knock-off" I have as anything that is not quality. My ONLY concern is cracking down the road, where I won't be covered.



FWIW, I've taken two identical cars (w/ identical mods) and produced the same power from each. One was running about 1.5 PSI less than the other.

OK. You're going to have to explain something else to me

You had to turn the boost on the it down 1.5psi to make the same power.
Assuming you you're comparing a KB and another header, isn't this direct proof KB's superiority? (unless it was the other way round.)


Added: No. Youre just saying cars are different and it hard to compare.

 

[uschearak]

Reading other threads I came across peeps suggesting adding fuel pump and injectors to the mod list If going with ELH and DP. I was hoping to hold my power mod list at AP pro tune, catted DP, ELH, (stock exhaust). Do I really "need" to look at pump, injectors or anything else for properly implementing the above? Hoping not, trying to avoid mod-creep : )

Yeah the obvious best choice is to add ibjectors, fuel pump, and some type of stumble mod. I would a vise against the Cobb stumble fix, as all it does is shift the stumble to the right.

It depends on the tune, you can obviously tune it down to where your injector duty is sitting at 98%. Speak with your tuner, he will guide you

 

[Toivonen]

Reading other threads I came across peeps suggesting adding fuel pump and injectors to the mod list If going with ELH and DP. I was hoping to hold my power mod list at AP pro tune, catted DP, ELH, (stock exhaust). Do I really "need" to look at pump, injectors or anything else for properly implementing the above? Hoping not, trying to avoid mod-creep : )

Mod creep, boost creep. If you want ELH, it will want to creep boost wise. If you tune if for stock like boost, it will want to creep around stock like boost. But the more boost you give it, the more it will want to creep without an EWG. To really get the best power out of the ELH possible, you will want injectors and a pump for safety.

Pay to play. Leave it stock or stage 1 at most, otherwise boost creep, mod creep and breaking things creep will start to creep into your car. Be ready to change things radically if you want more than a slight conservative tune. Not saying you have to do it but remember, you get to only pick two: fast, reliable and cheap.

 

[Beezupra]

You guys on this forum are consistently a great help, thx. I'm going to back off on the ELH for now, and thus avoid some of those "creeps". I do expect to add a catted DP and re-tune. And I've got some new Super Pro sways just arrived. That should be about the right mix for my ski, bike, and grocery hauler : )

 

[killerbmotorsport]

If you tune if for stock like boost, it will want to creep around stock like boost. But the more boost you give it, the more it will want to creep without an EWG.

I've never run stock boost once modding, but is would make some sense since the factor WG is not very efficient.

What you're saying about more boost=more creep is backwards. More boost equals less creep. It happens this way for a couple reasons. 1) Pre-turbo manifold pressure increases making it easier to push a volume of gas out the WG, and 2) with higher boost means less exhaust gases are needed to exit the WG.

As far as injectors, pump, etc. it really depends on how far you're going. A car with header and downpipe and everything else stock would not need injectors, a pump would suffice. Adding mods to maximize the OEM turbo's output you've got a couple choices. Go with injectors for additional safety and possibly more power too, or risk being at the edge of the OEM's injectors capabilities, or do not have the car tuned for maximum output (super conservative tune).