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Any more negative camber in the front will allow your car to reach "more than stock speeds" to the point where body roll can be a problem and it speeds around corners faster than the suspension can handle. I would leave the camber alone for now and focus on the steering and driveline as in "stage 2".
Thanks so much for your input. I currently already have the following aftermarket bushings/inserts:
-All Shifter Bushings
-Transmission Crossmember Bushings
-Rear Differential Inserts
-Pitchstop

Which leaves the following:
-Group-N Tranny Mount: I actually had this installed, but the minimal performance gain I felt from this did not outweigh the NVH I gained for my daily
Image

-Motor Mounts: Due to the increased NVH I got from the Tranny mount, I worry this may be even worse. I might hold off on this til a bit later
-Rear Subframe Inserts - This is probably going to be my next mod, seems like a quick and cheap enough install

Then when I get some more funding, the 2015+ Rack, steering rack bushings, and lower arm bar. If those are still not enough, then I will look into the GTWorx/RCE Yellows in the far future.

Leave the sways alone.
Thank you, when I first joined the forums I was shocked to see so many posts about upgrading sways before springs/shocks. Snap oversteer is no good!


My next question is, if I were to go -1.4ish on the fronts would there be any wear issues on long road trips. I typically do a few road trips a year of roughly 2000 miles each and was wondering if -1.4 on the fronts would wear poorly on the tires at interstate speeds around 80 mph
Only speaking for myself here, my camber is at -1.4 Front (Maxed out stock) and -1.5 Rear (not adjustable). I've had this for 7500 miles and did not notice any wear on the inside of my tires, and I had the tires slightly over-inflated in the winter to last through the elevation changes of long road trips up to mountains.

In fact, prior to the alignment, my tires were showing wear on the OUTSIDE, most likely due to the MacPherson strut compression situation that Toivonen describes in his first post.

My opinion is the -1.4 in the fronts should not show any inside wear, and probably counters the outer wear from the MacPhersons. Also, considering the rears are fixed at -1.5 and have been since you've owned the car, I don't think you'll have any issues.
 
Discussion starter · #82 ·
I always enjoy re-reading all the stages you've posted so far. I just finished doing all the driveline and suspension bushings/inserts (engine, pitch stop and tranny mounts, gearbox bushings, rear subframe and rear diff inserts) and love the way the car stays horizontal when turning while accelerating and the car feels much more planted in WOT straight line acceleration.

My next question is, if I were to go -1.4ish on the fronts would there be any wear issues on long road trips. I typically do a few road trips a year of roughly 2000 miles each and was wondering if -1.4 on the fronts would wear poorly on the tires at interstate speeds around 80 mph
No, the wear would be fine because even in braking the car assumes positive camber. I just got a performance alignment on my otherwise stock 2004 Forester XT and found braking to improve greatly. Stock it had zero or close to zero camber, but as you can imagine on braking and forward suspension compression the McPherson struts compress so you get positive camber on braking and outer wear.

Yes you might get a tad more wear on a long trip *but* I found that -3.4 has not worn the inside edges. Then again I drive my car *very* hard. If you drive hard, less camber (more negative value) is better and will wear the tires more evenly.
 
Discussion starter · #83 ·
Thanks so much for your input. I currently already have the following aftermarket bushings/inserts:
-All Shifter Bushings
-Transmission Crossmember Bushings
-Rear Differential Inserts
-Pitchstop

Which leaves the following:
-Group-N Tranny Mount: I actually had this installed, but the minimal performance gain I felt from this did not outweigh the NVH I gained for my daily Image Link

-Motor Mounts: Due to the increased NVH I got from the Tranny mount, I worry this may be even worse. I might hold off on this til a bit later
-Rear Subframe Inserts - This is probably going to be my next mod, seems like a quick and cheap enough install

Then when I get some more funding, the 2015+ Rack, steering rack bushings, and lower arm bar. If those are still not enough, then I will look into the GTWorx/RCE Yellows in the far future.



Thank you, when I first joined the forums I was shocked to see so many posts about upgrading sways before springs/shocks. Snap oversteer is no good!




Only speaking for myself here, my camber is at -1.4 Front (Maxed out stock) and -1.5 Rear (not adjustable). I've had this for 7500 miles and did not notice any wear on the inside of my tires, and I had the tires slightly over-inflated in the winter to last through the elevation changes of long road trips up to mountains.

In fact, prior to the alignment, my tires were showing wear on the OUTSIDE, most likely due to the MacPherson strut compression situation that Toivonen describes in his first post.

My opinion is the -1.4 in the fronts should not show any inside wear, and probably counters the outer wear from the MacPhersons. Also, considering the rears are fixed at -1.5 and have been since you've owned the car, I don't think you'll have any issues.
I think that the increased NVH from the transmission mount is contributed by the shifter bushings but I'll tell you that if you that to truly get the full benefits of these "mods", you have to do the whole thing. Some will make a difference, but the more you do, the more synergistic it is. Even if you are missing one or two points (rear diff and subframe, or motor and tranny mounts) the effect will be far less. This is a mod set where the final outcome is better than the sum of its parts.
 
I think that the increased NVH from the transmission mount is contributed by the shifter bushings
While this is what I hear from a majority of the forum members here, I found that to be untrue. I threw the Group-N tranny mount on 15,000 miles after my shifter bushings and I started getting a ton of road noise, enough that my passengers asked "why is your car suddenly so loud?" Took the Group-N mount off and road noise was gone.

I'll tell you that if you that to truly get the full benefits of these "mods", you have to do the whole thing. Some will make a difference, but the more you do, the more synergistic it is. Even if you are missing one or two points (rear diff and subframe, or motor and tranny mounts) the effect will be far less. This is a mod set where the final outcome is better than the sum of its parts.
I do agree with you here, I still have the Group-N mount in my garage, I might throw it on again later when I do the rear subframe inserts (or maybe when I eventually do the steering rack). Maybe then, after I feel the huge difference, will I be able to live with the noise :lol:
 
It's the other way around, shifter bushings alone will not add much if any NVH but the group N tranny mount is a lot louder if you put it on after putting on the shifter bushings.
This is definitely the case. I put in the Kartboy/TiC short shifter kit of awesomeness with all the bushings and didn't hear much difference. Then put in the group N tranny mount and then the NVH started. But it sounds sweet when engine breaking. If I wanted a quite car with squishy suspension I would have kept my '01 BMW 330CI.
 
I started the other way around. First were the Group N engine, trans, and pitch stop mounts. There hardly was an increase in NVH.

Next were all the shifter bushings. That resulted in a very loud transmission whine on 1st to 3rd gears at low speeds.

I removed the rear shifter bushing only and it was quite once more.

It seems like it is the sum of all the parts that causes the noise to be transmitted to the interior.
 
Discussion starter · #90 ·
Thanks for the info. Waiting for the sway write up.....:tup:
It's coming. Read the wheel rate thread also on the stickies in this forum.

Short answer is this writeup, particularly past stage 2 is more focused a GR. I believe it will still make a good read for overall info as many of the same general concepts apply, but the change in handling of the car by upgrading a certain wheel rate contributing piece like a spring or a sway might be different in the GV/2015+ chassis.

However, in general, one is better off upgrading everything first. Swaybars make the car feel better at low speed away from the limit, but due to their lateral weight transfer and independence robbing effect on the suspension can create problems at the limit. Most of the time they are not a good idea and in most cases the ratio of F/R proportion in the sways should be kept. I believe the GV might be 24/20, so if the GV has a 4mm difference, then it would probably be advisable not to stray from that or you will lift tires.

The one thing that is good to upgrade are bushings and endlinks although upgraded sway bushings do require periodic cleaning and regreasing, yes this is true even for the Super Pro's.
 
^ What causes inside wheel lift? IMO the situation that contributes to inside wheel lift are a combination of factors including spring rates, swaybars, chassis stiffness, speed (kinetic energy) and drivers input. In essence the car is rolling to the outside when cornering so the weight naturally transfers to the outside and therefore reduces on the inside wheel. The inside spring naturally pushes the inside tire downward as the weight transfers. So why is there inside wheel lift and why isn't it common on stock suspension?

The stock suspension is a balanced so that swaybar and spring rates, plus the shock damping eliminates or dramatically limits the inner wheel from lifting before traction limits are exceeded. In this case it is unlikely to achieve wheel lift (oversteer) unless there is an extreme driver input.

As you change "wheel spring rates" which is a formula that includes swaybar and springs and accounts for some chassis dynmaics ......but it does not account for damping/valving rates.

A general rule for adjustable shocks/coilovers is that when stiffening springs and/or swaybars is to reduce the compression/bump damping bc the stiffer springs will resist the cars upward movement so less damping is needed. The reverse is true for rebound damping, more is needed? Why? Bc there is more rebounding resistance force/valving needed due to the increased spring rates.

Now here is the rub with swaybar increases: they try to lift the inside wheel during cornering so while the inside wheel spring is trying to push the tire back down as the car rolls to the outside the swaybar is trying to lift it so counter acting the springs natural tendency.

The other general rule is that if you increase spring rates you should increase swaybar dia bc the spring compresses less for a given load, which creates less deflection in the swaybar thus reducing it's effective influence on the total "wheel spring rate".

If you are running on stock dampers but increase a swaybar dia it will act as though you've added more spring. And if done in small increments it is a cheap way to "tweak" the handling. But if you go very large then the swaybar will "over power" the inside spring's effort to push the tire down on the road.....potentially causing lift.

If you now add stiffer springs to your oem dampers/struts you should be able to offset some of the unwanted swaybar induced wheel lift. If you can match the swaybar effect with the increased spring rate you can minimize the lift. Unfortunately we have now increased our total "wheel spring rates" so the dampin/valving in the strut may or may not be able to handle the changes.

When the wheel spring rates are changed there needs to be a change in the damping....more rebound and less or relatively less compression is the general direction needed. If the compression is too stiff the car over reacts to bumps, and if rebound is too soft the car bounces after hiitting a bump and can't resist the inside wheel swaybar upward lifting force.....creating inside wheel lift.

Adding adjustable struts or 1 way coilovers allow adjustment for rebound and so you can dial in more rebound to offset more wheel spring rate but you'll also increase compression damping a little too. Ideally you'd beable to reduce the compression instead of increasing it. 2 way coilovers would allow both rebound and compression to be dialed in.
 
My (quite limited) experience put me in complete agreement with jayboyds post above.

Shifter bushings made transmission noise apparent in both my STI and sons WRX. Both are GD. My Perrin pitchstop, engine and transmission mount together added virtually no "riding" NVH compared to stock. Actually they almost seem quieter! With the new HDSS though, I can cause bucking on starts despite the CF driveshaft. Hadn't done that in a long time.

Added: Perhaps the whole Perrin mount setup did add a little NVH. I'm driving a Subaru and a modded GD at that. I'm pretty immune :)
 
owns 2020 Subaru STI
While this is what I hear from a majority of the forum members here, I found that to be untrue. I threw the Group-N tranny mount on 15,000 miles after my shifter bushings and I started getting a ton of road noise, enough that my passengers asked "why is your car suddenly so loud?" Took the Group-N mount off and road noise was gone.



I do agree with you here, I still have the Group-N mount in my garage, I might throw it on again later when I do the rear subframe inserts (or maybe when I eventually do the steering rack). Maybe then, after I feel the huge difference, will I be able to live with the noise :lol:
Small update, threw in the KDT910 Sub Frame Inserts yesterday and decided to also put the Group-N Transmission mount back on for the 3rd time.

Initial impressions:
-Rear feels so solid it's awesome, really noticed it when I had to make a quick lane change on the freeway going 65mph or so. Took me by surprise because I was expecting a bit of a "lag" but now it just felt more instantaneous.
-Increased road noise is still there from the Group-N mount but now that I have an exhaust it kind of overpowers the NVH anyway, so I'm keeping it on!

Next will be the Motor Mounts, then front strut bar, then lower arm bar, and finally 2015+ Rack and Steering Rack bushings... in that order :lol:
 
Opinion on '11+ bushings? I've been told by my installer that with the updates to the body also came updated bushings, making the "need" to upgrade a 99% street use car less. Opinions on this, total bologna?
 
Opinion on '11+ bushings? I've been told by my installer that with the updates to the body also came updated bushings, making the "need" to upgrade a 99% street use car less. Opinions on this, total bologna?
Is your installer telling you this for a specific bushing kit or for every bushing kit on the car? There were a couple of pretty minor bushing updates done in 2011, but nothing that still won't hugely benefit from being upgraded. I can tell you exactly what was upgraded and what remained the same as previous years, but just wanted to make sure I didn't type some giant list of bushings if he was talking about something specific.

Thanks,
Geoff
 
.
3. Transmission Mount which can also cut down on understeer and increase steering responsiveness, but also improve shifting feel and action.
While this is a good upgrade it really isn't going to do anything perceivable in the understeer department. If you want the transmission to move slightly less this along with a pitchstop, engine mounts and gear box mount bushings is a great mod, but if you want less understeer you'll be pretty disappointed as it has basically nothing to do with how neutral the car is. If you want less understeer get a stiffer rear bar or some coilovers with stiff rear springs or both.

.
5. Shift Linkage bushings make the car seem like a RWD with the shifter directly turning gears like a RWD pickup or true sports car
In my opinion a shift linkage bushing upgrade doesn't make the shifter feel anything like a traditional shifter. It just makes it a better linkage shifter. Whether a car is RWD or AWD also has nothing to do with whether or not it uses a linkage shifter. A Porsche 911 along with many mid engine super cars are "true sports cars" that are RWD and use linkage shifters just like an STi does.

Thanks,
Geoff
 
Discussion starter · #97 ·
Opinion on '11+ bushings? I've been told by my installer that with the updates to the body also came updated bushings, making the "need" to upgrade a 99% street use car less. Opinions on this, total bologna?
Suspension bushings are pretty high quality in the 2011+ GR's but the motor mounts and transmission mounts are not that great. OTher bushings in the driveline do make a difference though. Suspension I would leave alone until you do coilovers as those are pretty high quality.

While this is a good upgrade it really isn't going to do anything perceivable in the understeer department. If you want the transmission to move slightly less this along with a pitchstop, engine mounts and gear box mount bushings is a great mod, but if you want less understeer you'll be pretty disappointed as it has basically nothing to do with how neutral the car is. If you want less understeer get a stiffer rear bar or some coilovers with stiff rear springs or both.
Geoff;

Again you are a wonderful guy but a stiffer bar, particularly alone, is probably the single worst suspension mod anyone could possibly do to their car. I have detailed the problems extensively but what you are doing is basically dropping rear grip substantially to artificially compensate for how under cornering the rear suspension tends to give up grip later. But what you are doing is instead of getting understeer as you approach the 0.93g limit, the car will give up its grip ghost at less than that, how much I don't know, but less than what it was before.

The car will be more poised up to that point at lower speed up to that limit but when you lose the rear grip, certainly at a lower G level than the stock setup, it will want to spin like a ballerina and this is a bad thing to discover firsthand what a bad idea unless you are on an autocross with plenty of runoff. Things like other vehicles, jersey barriers, trees, ditches, sidewalks, human beings, buildings, animals and anything else you can hurt, destroy or kill (or damage your car as well) make this mod a bad idea. This one especially, more so than upping both front and rear not in a 2mm front larger bar proportion will rob the top speed you can corner for a better low speed feel while adding malignant handling characteristics. You can see the snap oversteer problem even on a setup that has the front bar 1mm thicker bar at the limit. Don't do the Rear Sway Bar alone!!!!!

The problem with GR STi's is that they are unintuitive to drive because the rear grips more than front during cornering because of dynamic alignment changes. There is nothing you can do to totally make this go away. The GR STi was built to take corners fast as a grip monster and possibly feed in throttle early in the curve. It is less intuitive to drive than the GD's which more or less give up grip evenly front to rear, which is what made them so fun in DD. People criticized the GD STi as being too raw and extreme, a "1% car", to this I say you can feel like you're driving that top 1% of limit 99% of the time and have a blast. It made going fast easy and accessible. The GR not so, the GR is faster around the track but not intuitive. Now, you can set it up to be able to at least somewhat power oversteer like a GD but in so doing you are messing up the balance so badly that the car will become squirrelly, that it will be scary to drive at high speed, that it won't grip well in the rain and be dangerous, and that you make the understeer a different drawback. Instead of not being able to stomp the throttle because of understeer, you now lose grip so now you have "no"-steer, the car just loses grip and you have to very carefully goose the throttle slowly coming out of a corner, and that sucks more.

There is nothing you can do to totally cure the STi of understeer in a way that actually enhances the total driving experience because then you are bringing about other, more serious handling deficiencies. You will never have a GD with a GR. Say that out lout 10 times, learn it, assimilate it, and live by it. But this is not a bad thing. You can lessen the understeer by about 80%, you can increase the grip enormously and what you are left with is a car where in DD Mode the limits become so high that you can give lots and lots of throttle early in the curve. It doesn't rotate like a GD, but you can give tons of throttle all the time while bombing into and out of corners with terrifying aplomb, only to realize you are nowhere near the limit. This is actually really fast on the track and autocross as well, faster than a car that "rotates". Ergo, go for grip, traction and control. And please, this is not just my opinion, this is my experience because everything else I did trying to emulate the GD which I so loved and wanted to have in a hatch back just.... fell flat on its face one way or another.

What people feel as understeer is the slop in response, especially at high speed (which can be fixed with the driveline bushing mods). The steering upgrades also helps, and the performance alignment (or aligning to match your wheel rates and/or stickiness of tires, higher in these fields will require lower or more negative front camber) is about the only thing that truly improves understeer in a meaningful, safe way that, up to a certain point, has little to no drawback. You still have a car that does not want to rotate, but with the alignment and chassis/driveline/steering mods now the car is a lot easier to drive the way it wants to be driven rather than forcing it to do something it cannot do and will never be good at doing.
 
Suspension bushings are pretty high quality in the 2011+ GR's but the motor mounts and transmission mounts are not that great. OTher bushings in the driveline do make a difference though. Suspension I would leave alone until you do coilovers as those are pretty high quality.
What about front and rear rear trailing arm bushings, upper control arm bushings and rear lower inner control arm bushings? What about subframe inserts, front steering rack bushings and front LCA front and rear bushings? I find all of these to be hugely beneficial even on and otherwise bone stock car. Coilovers are great, but the problem is not everyone here is going to want to A) spend the money and time involved to upgrade to them and B) live with the significant ride quality compromises you must make with stiff linear springs whether you have high end dampers or not. Not everyone is building a time attack car. Some people just want to enjoy their cars a little more on a twisty mountain road. Some owners are going to be better off with sways and bushings. A one size fits all prescription with zero regard for people's goals or endgame really doesn't work. It's not to say that your method doesn't work. It does work, and I'm glad you enjoy your setup so much. There is just more than one viable course of action.

Geoff;

Again you are a wonderful guy but a stiffer bar, particularly alone, is probably the single worst suspension mod anyone could possibly do to their car. I have detailed the problems extensively but what you are doing is basically dropping rear grip substantially to artificially compensate for how under cornering the rear suspension tends to give up grip later. But what you are doing is instead of getting understeer as you approach the 0.93g limit, the car will give up its grip ghost at less than that, how much I don't know, but less than what it was before.

The car will be more poised up to that point at lower speed up to that limit but when you lose the rear grip, certainly at a lower G level than the stock setup, it will want to spin like a ballerina and this is a bad thing to discover firsthand what a bad idea unless you are on an autocross with plenty of runoff. Things like other vehicles, jersey barriers, trees, ditches, sidewalks, human beings, buildings, animals and anything else you can hurt, destroy or kill (or damage your car as well) make this mod a bad idea. This one especially, more so than upping both front and rear not in a 2mm front larger bar proportion will rob the top speed you can corner for a better low speed feel while adding malignant handling characteristics. You can see the snap oversteer problem even on a setup that has the front bar 1mm thicker bar at the limit. Don't do the Rear Sway Bar alone!!!!!

The problem with GR STi's is that they are unintuitive to drive because the rear grips more than front during cornering because of dynamic alignment changes. There is nothing you can do to totally make this go away. The GR STi was built to take corners fast as a grip monster and possibly feed in throttle early in the curve. It is less intuitive to drive than the GD's which more or less give up grip evenly front to rear, which is what made them so fun in DD. People criticized the GD STi as being too raw and extreme, a "1% car", to this I say you can feel like you're driving that top 1% of limit 99% of the time and have a blast. It made going fast easy and accessible. The GR not so, the GR is faster around the track but not intuitive. Now, you can set it up to be able to at least somewhat power oversteer like a GD but in so doing you are messing up the balance so badly that the car will become squirrelly, that it will be scary to drive at high speed, that it won't grip well in the rain and be dangerous, and that you make the understeer a different drawback. Instead of not being able to stomp the throttle because of understeer, you now lose grip so now you have "no"-steer, the car just loses grip and you have to very carefully goose the throttle slowly coming out of a corner, and that sucks more.

There is nothing you can do to totally cure the STi of understeer in a way that actually enhances the total driving experience because then you are bringing about other, more serious handling deficiencies. You will never have a GD with a GR. Say that out lout 10 times, learn it, assimilate it, and live by it. But this is not a bad thing. You can lessen the understeer by about 80%, you can increase the grip enormously and what you are left with is a car where in DD Mode the limits become so high that you can give lots and lots of throttle early in the curve. It doesn't rotate like a GD, but you can give tons of throttle all the time while bombing into and out of corners with terrifying aplomb, only to realize you are nowhere near the limit. This is actually really fast on the track and autocross as well, faster than a car that "rotates". Ergo, go for grip, traction and control. And please, this is not just my opinion, this is my experience because everything else I did trying to emulate the GD which I so loved and wanted to have in a hatch back just.... fell flat on its face one way or another.

What people feel as understeer is the slop in response, especially at high speed (which can be fixed with the driveline bushing mods). The steering upgrades also helps, and the performance alignment (or aligning to match your wheel rates and/or stickiness of tires, higher in these fields will require lower or more negative front camber) is about the only thing that truly improves understeer in a meaningful, safe way that, up to a certain point, has little to no drawback. You still have a car that does not want to rotate, but with the alignment and chassis/driveline/steering mods now the car is a lot easier to drive the way it wants to be driven rather than forcing it to do something it cannot do and will never be good at doing.


I wasn't really suggesting doing it alone. I was simply pointing out some mods that would actually make a meaningful difference when it comes to understeer. I would do both bars together. I know for a fact that many of your posts are based educated guesses rather than real experience, but on this transmission mount idea I'm really not sure. Have you really installed a transmission mount on its own and noticed a difference in understeer? For that matter has anyone else here done this? I've upgraded transmission mounts on all four of my STi's and noticed less drivetrain slop afterwards, but you are the first person I know of who has ever claimed it has anything at all to do with understeer.

If it does improve understeer then I would think the trans bushings, a pitchstop and motor mounts would all help as well since they are all reducing unwanted movement in the engine and transmission assembly. There is a bit of a handling improvement with these parts since you reduce drivetrain movement during cornering, but that really isn't going to have any perceivable effect on the neutrality of the car. The car will still understeer just as much.. it'll just maybe feel a little better doing it. The main thing you notice with this mod is less drivetrain movement during hard launches and shifts.

The 2015 STi has a stiffer rear bar from the factory than a GR and it's faster around the Nurburgring. Apparently Subaru themselves think that stiffer bars are a good upgrade and they've proven that they actually do make the car faster. Before you say the rear suspension on the 15 has a different design than the GR does... it does not. Same fitment/parts for the entire rear suspension assembly include the swaybar, endlinks, trailing arms, lower control arms, upper control arms etc.

If anyone takes the time to search the archives here to see what most people think about front and rear swaybar upgrades you'll find that the overwhelming majority of them find it to be an extremely beneficial mod. Recently there have been a lot of anti swaybar posts on this forum, but almost all of them are coming from a single source and go against the consensus.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they want to turn a GR into a GD. I've owned a couple of GDs and still do own one. I bought my first 12 years ago and have had one ever since. One of them was a nationally competitive autox car that I raced for years. I've actually setup a GR to be even quicker than that car though and I couldn't have done this on stock bars.

Anyway, the purpose of my short post wasn't to get into another massively long and complicated exchange about swaybars. It was to let people know that if they read what you said and expected some sort of understeer improvement from a trans mount they would be disappointed. I'm not trying to call you out or be right. I just hate seeing people spend money and time upgrading their cars and not getting the results they are hoping for. I think this forum is the best resource on the net for STi suspension tech info. I'm only trying to do my part to keep it that way.

Thanks,
Geoff
 
Discussion starter · #99 ·
What about front and rear rear trailing arm bushings, upper control arm bushings and rear lower inner control arm bushings? What about subframe inserts, front steering rack bushings and front LCA front and rear bushings? I find all of these to be hugely beneficial even on and otherwise bone stock car. Coilovers are great, but the problem is not everyone here is going to want to A) spend the money and time involved to upgrade to them and B) live with the significant ride quality compromises you must make with stiff linear springs whether you have high end dampers or not. Not everyone is building a time attack car. Some people just want to enjoy their cars a little more on a twisty mountain road. Some owners are going to be better off with sways and bushings. A one size fits all prescription with zero regard for people's goals or endgame really doesn't work. It's not to say that your method doesn't work. It does work, and I'm glad you enjoy your setup so much. There is just more than one viable course of action.
It's about Macchiavelli: all courses of action are potentially viable, you can do anything you want if you can afford it. The more important question to ask is how does it work? In my experience every deviation from the factory setup provided for worse results so I had to undo-it with regards to swaybars and F/R spring rate proportions.

If anything I am being very sensitive of people who are on a budget. If you want to make the most of your money, you can make the most of the stock suspension with a performance alignment and chassis upgrades. Many of the negatives of the stock STi are not eliminated, but they are felt far less across the spectrum of driving both on the street and on the track.

I wasn't saying to do coilovers, but I don't know how you interpreted my trans mount comment I may have mis-spoke about the trans mount. Do reference the first posts in this thread where I recommend doing the entire driveline. If you think about the physics, when driving things that move around will shift more weight, at times unpredictably. The more weight is shifted unpredictably, the worse the car handles. This is why smooth control inputs lead to faster autocross times. Also see my same post regarding reducing the gyroscope effect. So my recommendation is to work on the entire driveline as a whole and not just a trans mount as well.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/4109320-post3.html


I wasn't really suggesting doing it alone. I was simply pointing out some mods that would actually make a meaningful difference when it comes to understeer. I would do both bars together. I know for a fact that many of your posts are based educated guesses rather than real experience, but on this transmission mount idea I'm really not sure. Have you really installed a transmission mount on its own and noticed a difference in understeer? For that matter has anyone else here done this? I've upgraded transmission mounts on all four of my STi's and noticed less drivetrain slop afterwards, but you are the first person I know of who has ever claimed it has anything at all to do with understeer.
The only real educated guess I made as far as handling was regarding the rubber tophats and coilovers. And it's not an educated guess because even at -2.0 degrees of camber in the front I still felt like the car was pushing too much. This is because coiloves (and stiff springs) require stiffer tires to really work. And when you start doing all this, the car needs less (more negative) camber due to higher speeds. They all go hand in hand, higher wheel rates, stickier tires, and less camber (more negative). IF you don't believe me look at the Hoosier website which is sort of the extreme and they recommend values more negative than -3.0! But in my experience one of the single most understeer solving mods in my STi was going from -.6 stock to -1.5, to -2.0 (or low 2's but that was not enough on the higher spring rates) to finally -3.4. This is not practical for everyone but if someone is plunking down thousands for coilovers (which it should cost that much after bushings, labor alignment, springs, corner balancing, tophats or where this sentence is going, camber plates), the car will still be capable of only -1.4 or -1.5' of front camber with rubber tophats. Sure you may lower the car, and that might give you more negative camber, but you always want the front camber bolts maxed out because that gives you a dynamically better type of static camber than what comes from higher up on the plates. So after corner balancing, then the front will not have even amounts of camber, and you will probably still need to lower the camber some more to get it to at least -2.0 which is better w/ the stiffer springs. You'd rather adjust it from the camber plates and having as much negative as possible from the stock camber bolts, and the extra adjustment is very useful. I did make a mistake thinking that there were front camber ajdust bushings but the rest is not conjecture.

Why? Because I did 23/22 sways on the stock springs. Felt great until autocross when the car unpredictably and malignantly would spin out under power or trying to rotate it gently. Tried 23/21 for an autocross, and that was better, but the car rotated better and had more controllable behavior at the limit. Both feel better than stock at low speed, though 23/22 felt way, way better, but neither was as good as stock at the limit.

I did many, many HPDE, track, autocross events the last year and a half. Most of the time I did each mod one at a time except some that I did not think were absolutely going to work (like increasing rear spring while leaving rear sway alone, I went up with one and down with the other because wheel rate calculations would have been off). The second "mod" that I did that meaningfully improved handling each and every time, and in the same direction as front camber was downing the sways, all the way back down to almost stock!

If it does improve understeer then I would think the trans bushings, a pitchstop and motor mounts would all help as well since they are all reducing unwanted movement in the engine and transmission assembly. There is a bit of a handling improvement with these parts since you reduce drivetrain movement during cornering, but that really isn't going to have any perceivable effect on the neutrality of the car. The car will still understeer just as much.. it'll just maybe feel a little better doing it. The main thing you notice with this mod is less drivetrain movement during hard launches and shifts.
The car will still understeer just as much.. it'll just maybe feel a little better doing it.
This is the whole point. It not only eeks out a tiny little bit of better handling (from better stability of the driveline that doesn't upset the balance while cornering as much), but it allows you to feel and control the car far, far better. So in essence the stock setup is still the stock setup, but there is no downside as it works as it should from the factory otherwise. All that's done is this mod makes it easier for you to make the most of it. But that makes for a big, big, big difference because the loosest nut is almost always behind the wheel!

The 2015 STi has a stiffer rear bar from the factory than a GR and it's faster around the Nurburgring. Apparently Subaru themselves think that stiffer bars are a good upgrade and they've proven that they actually do make the car faster. Before you say the rear suspension on the 15 has a different design than the GR does... it does not. Same fitment/parts for the entire rear suspension assembly include the swaybar, endlinks, trailing arms, lower control arms, upper control arms etc.
Different cars, apples to oranges. Subaru did what I did x1,000 mod for mod, bushing for bushing, spring rate to spring rate, sway for sway testing the GV STi and with their huge (compared to all of us) budget found a setup that worked. You have to consider that the GV STi's have different spring rates, different dampers that this time, according to RCE are actually quite good, much better than any of their past dampers, have a stiffer chassis, and may very well have different bushings, possibly different brake bias and even different suspension pickup points. The problem with this suspension modding is that most setups you think of don't work just because you think "ah, this will reduce understeer" or "this will increase responsiveness" because your hypothesis does not exist in isolation, but brings about many, many, many unintended consequences. And Subaru put the time to test it for the GV and make it work. So you cannot just say "ah sways made the GV handle better" and do the same thing on the GR's expecting the same result because in truth there are so many other variables as to render this analogy, from a scientific and rational point of view, invalid.

If anyone takes the time to search the archives here to see what most people think about front and rear swaybar upgrades you'll find that the overwhelming majority of them find it to be an extremely beneficial mod. Recently there have been a lot of anti swaybar posts on this forum, but almost all of them are coming from a single source and go against the consensus.
Not to toot my own horn but I have done a lot more tracking and autocrossing of my STi that most owners have. It's not competitive, but this is the point I am trying to make.

Look up my old sway bar posts and see how much I loved them. On DD they are awesome because at 5/10 or 7/10ths they make the car seem tighter, more responsive and easier to drive as well as make its limits easier to approach. The problem with this is that the limits are actually lower, and the car behaves worse, especially with just a RSB. And the reason I was posting this is I had no idea how badly they influenced handling until I went around and round and round (until back to near stock like setup) lowering the sway rates with the car handling better with every single step. But I had the luxury to do this on closed courses, yet these mods, however unlikely, but particularly just the rear sway bar, increase the chance that you will discover the drawbacks after your STi gets modified by a tree, ditch, another vehicle, guard rail, jersey barrier, animal, building or modifies another person irreversibly. And then you will think of Toivonen's thoughts about how swaybars did not work well for him and the light will go off in your head "HMM, MAYBE THAT DIFFICULTY IN CONTROLLING THE CAR AT THE LIMIT WASN'T TOIVONEN IMAGINING THINGS".

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they want to turn a GR into a GD. I've owned a couple of GDs and still do own one. I bought my first 12 years ago and have had one ever since. One of them was a nationally competitive autox car that I raced for years. I've actually setup a GR to be even quicker than that car though and I couldn't have done this on stock bars.
I was using the more intuitive nature of the GD as an example. It is very neutral from the factory but it can do so from being a different animal. Making the GR totally neutral involves too many compromises and with track experience honestly the emphasis should not be on "dialing down understeer" as if Subaru had made an error in their wheel rates.

Upgraded sways can work but you need very stiff springs, very sticky tires and high end coilovers to make it work. And even then my personal preference was to use springs; that's just me. But on the stock springs, forget it, upping the sways even conservatively was a total miss.

And who knows, your GR might have been even more competitive with stiffer springs and less or no bars, as you know many STi's making it to the nationals run no bars on the stiffest springs out there!

Anyway, the purpose of my short post wasn't to get into another massively long and complicated exchange about swaybars. It was to let people know that if they read what you said and expected some sort of understeer improvement from a trans mount they would be disappointed. I'm not trying to call you out or be right. I just hate seeing people spend money and time upgrading their cars and not getting the results they are hoping for. I think this forum is the best resource on the net for STi suspension tech info. I'm only trying to do my part to keep it that way.

Thanks,
Geoff
I just hate seeing people spend money and time upgrading their cars and not getting the results they are hoping for.

As I as well, but I was there with upgraded sways. I got pretty mad sometimes looking back, but it was all worth it, especially when the sway rates decreased.

So yes there is more than one course of action, but sways...... did not work. So you can do it. You will love it provided you don't track or autocross your car. Just hope that 90% of your car's capability with more difficulty controlling it up the limit suits you just fine. It didn't suit me, and that's why I went back to close to stock.
 
Suspension bushings are pretty high quality in the 2011+ GR's but the motor mounts and transmission mounts are not that great. OTher bushings in the driveline do make a difference though. Suspension I would leave alone until you do coilovers as those are pretty high quality.
Is your installer telling you this for a specific bushing kit or for every bushing kit on the car? There were a couple of pretty minor bushing updates done in 2011, but nothing that still won't hugely benefit from being upgraded. I can tell you exactly what was upgraded and what remained the same as previous years, but just wanted to make sure I didn't type some giant list of bushings if he was talking about something specific.
Thanks to both responses.

I should include that my very first suspension mod was the install of a set of RCE T0's and Work 11r's wrapped in 265/35/18 MPSS's and a decent alignment to suit. Very much started off with aesthetic mods coming first, now I've come to realize it's very much time to build the car to utilize parts that are not yet being used as they could be. Installer simply stated his opinion that as a street car that has spent roughly .1% of it's life on the track, that I should not feel obligated to swap out every bushing in the car to build a solid street car.
 
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