[SexySatinWhiteSTI]

It's not just a moral opinion. That mentality and persistent actions by those with the failures are the reason why Subaru reps and dealers are so skeptical and instantly want to blame the owner. When everyone lies to them, they don't believe the people who are actually telling the truth. This also makes it difficult for them to identify a root cause. If they don't have all the facts, how can they know WHY it failed?

I have a friend with a newer LS3 vette, procharged to over 600whp. Snapped the input shaft on his transmission, destroyed the rear diff. 6k in repairs. Brought the car into Chevy as is, didn't lie and they didn't bat an eye at the procharger. Never once even had to mention the word warranty. They just fixed it, no questions asked.

Mutual respect, the subaru community doesn't have it. We have a bunch of back door liars that don't want to own up to anything themselves. No wonder Subaru puts paint on every bolt and every part to catch someone in a lie.

So when you get speeding ticket do you just pay the penalty and take the points or do you get a lawyer and fight it so you don't pay as much? That's morally cheating too but I'm sure you people do it. Point is don't pick and choose what is ok to call morally wrong when I'm sure your not all angels across the board. Dealers and SOA are not out for the customer. They are out to save their as* and money. There are plenty of post on these boards where people get the run around from dealers and SOA. They are not concerned morally.

 

[LaW]

I didn't ask for your moral opinion. And clearly you haven't had the issue so I wasn't asking you. Thanks

First, I am sorry you have to stoop to that level.

Second, like mentioned above this is not an issue of right or wrong as it also affects everyone else. The more people that "cheat the system" the more Subaru will move more quickly to make it hard to get work covered. Also the more money they are dishing out on warranty repairs can trickle down to the owners or future owners.

This has not happened to me but when I modify a car I have money to fix it when it breaks. I have had things break on my car that because of mods did not take to the dealer and paid to fix it myself. With that said I am only at stage 2 but have money put aside if the engine fails.

Why do you think they should be fixing it? How do you know it is their fault? This is the reason why some dealers/subaru give owners a hard time about their car and driving habits etc when warranty work comes up.

 

[LaW]

A speeding ticket you fight is not apples to apples with what we are discussing here. Percentage of the time you will NOT be paying less for a ticket but may get points reduced. The state still gets your money in the end, you are negotiating the ticket.

An apples to apples comparison to that would be taking your car in as is, they say they won't cover it and you negotiate a mutual agreement (50/50) or something like that.

You don't go in to fight the ticket saying you didn't speed, you know you sped but let's make a deal.

All I am saying is most here will not recommend your approach, this is not the thread for that.

Also if you really want to get away with it DON'T post on the internet.

So when you get speeding ticket do you just pay the penalty and take the points or do you get a lawyer and fight it so you don't pay as much? That's morally cheating too but I'm sure you people do it. Point is don't pick and choose what is ok to call morally wrong when I'm sure your not all angels across the board. Dealers and SOA are not out for the customer. They are out to save their as* and money. There are plenty of post on these boards where people get the run around from dealers and SOA. They are not concerned morally.

 

[SexySatinWhiteSTI]

First, I am sorry you have to stoop to that level.

Second, like mentioned above this is not an issue of right or wrong as it also affects everyone else. The more people that "cheat the system" the more Subaru will move more quickly to make it hard to get work covered. Also the more money they are dishing out on warranty repairs can trickle down to the owners or future owners.

This has not happened to me but when I modify a car I have money to fix it when it breaks. I have had things break on my car that because of mods did not take to the dealer and paid to fix it myself. With that said I am only at stage 2 but have money put aside if the engine fails.

Why do you think they should be fixing it? How do you know it is their fault? This is the reason why some dealers/subaru give owners a hard time about their car and driving habits etc when warranty work comes up.

Take it to what level? Meaning like saying you hope people don't answer me? How childish are you. Again I asked for people who had a specific case and issue. Clearly you aren't that. You just want to throw your 2 moral cents in. That's not what I asked for. My car is stock performance wise so if I have an issue your damn right they are going to fix it. I was just curious of others experiences. Clearly this is an issue stock or not. There for it should be fixed stock or not. But subaru won't do that. They will blame the clearly factory fault on any performance mod if they can. Again not looking out for the customer or acting morally.

 

[LaW]

Take it to what level? Meaning like saying you hope people don't answer me? How childish are you. Again I asked for people who had a specific case and issue. Clearly you aren't that. You just want to throw your 2 moral cents in. That's not what I asked for. My car is stock performance wise so if I have an issue your damn right they are going to fix it. I was just curious of others experiences. Clearly this is an issue stock or not. There for it should be fixed stock or not. But subaru won't do that. They will blame the clearly factory fault on any performance mod if they can. Again not looking out for the customer or acting morally.

What I meant was that I am sorry you have to stoop to the level of hiding modifications to try and trick Subaru into covering your car. I would just be straight up about it because even going back to stock they can still you modified it so it just looks cheap.

I completely agree if there is an issue with a STOCK car it should be covered by Subaru. But why should they have to cover your car when you have performance mods? I don't think you understand?

What are you doing when you are adding performance mods? You are adding torque to this car and even a Stage 1 or simple Stage 2 you are adding a LOT more to the car. How can you say for sure who was at fault? The subaru is not an instant power machine, you have to pay to play with this thing. You cannot just add more power and expect stock reliability.

The issue here is that a stock tune could cause an engine failure but this is rare, the more power you add and when you throw in various tuners, OTS maps etc there are so many factors that can play into the engine failing. Just because #2 and #4 ringlands are common doesn't mean they are failing due to the same short falls. Once you modify the car and add performance it is no longer Subaru's problem. When modifying any engine you have to consider the motors weak points and either modify around them or prepare to replace them when something fails.

Because Subaru decided to put hypercast pistons in their car you feel they should cover any repair cost? You are completely unrealistic. Because they use hypercast pistons it is crucial to get a good tune, it is crucial to understand that adding power can increase the risk of failure and plan accordingly. Don't blame Subaru for every failure. They are giving us a starting platform and YOU chose where you want to take it. Subaru will take care of those that keep it as is but you are just gambling when you start to modify it.

Since you HAVE a stock car why are you even in this thread asking? Moral issues aside as well I just think your logic is flawed or misguided. The whole "If it happens stock subaru should fix it always" mentality is amazing. This is my final word to you.

 

[ga9213]

Take it to what level? Meaning like saying you hope people don't answer me? How childish are you. Again I asked for people who had a specific case and issue. Clearly you aren't that. You just want to throw your 2 moral cents in. That's not what I asked for. My car is stock performance wise so if I have an issue your damn right they are going to fix it. I was just curious of others experiences. Clearly this is an issue stock or not. There for it should be fixed stock or not. But subaru won't do that. They will blame the clearly factory fault on any performance mod if they can. Again not looking out for the customer or acting morally.

What you're failing to realize is WHY they aren't looking out for the customer. It's a cause and effect. Enough people lie over a period of enough time, they start EXPECTING their customers to lie and fight them over everything.

Who's going to be the first to fix their behavior? I agree Subaru should treat the customers better. Nothing sucks worse than knowing that if something happens I'm probably going to have a fight on my hands...but I've always been an honest person and someone that tells the truth and owns up to my choices. In the end, I've always come out ahead. I carry that philosophy. I'll do unto them as I'd have them do unto me. 90% of the time, it works everytime.

 

[LaW]

Anyway, back on track. I will probably be closing the survey after the last few years as it is about as good as it will get. I will make an update and update the first post with the final numbers.

 

[Xaqtly]

but I've always been an honest person and someone that tells the truth and owns up to my choices. In the end, I've always come out ahead. I carry that philosophy. I'll do unto them as I'd have them do unto me. 90% of the time, it works everytime.

Are you still going to feel that way if your engine blows up, you know your mods didn't cause it, and Subaru refuses to fix it under warranty because you have mods? You will be out 5 grand for a problem that wasn't your fault and wasn't caused by you in any way.

 

[LaW]

Are you still going to feel that way if your engine blows up, you know your mods didn't cause it, and Subaru refuses to fix it under warranty because you have mods? You will be out 5 grand for a problem that wasn't your fault and wasn't caused by you in any way.

I don't really want to see this continue as we are just going to argue both sides all day.

The fact is that you don't know if your mods caused it or not. That is the reality. I would always just be upfront and the goal I think would be to get it covered once or 50/50 would be fair if you feel it is not entirely your fault.

I just want to understand how people are coming to the conclusion that it is not the fault of modifications?

 

[Xaqtly]

How are you coming to the conclusion that it IS the fault of the modifications? An AccessPort doesn't do anything that would blow up an engine - in fact it's generally safer to run than the stock map, since it fixes the lean condition that exists in the stock map.

It's easy enough to log and see that for yourself. We know the ring land problem happens to stock and modified cars alike, meaning modifications are NOT what is causing the problem. Knowing this, would you shell out the $5k with a smile on your face when Subaru denies your warranty?

 

[SexySatinWhiteSTI]

What you're failing to realize is WHY they aren't looking out for the customer. It's a cause and effect. Enough people lie over a period of enough time, they start EXPECTING their customers to lie and fight them over everything.

Who's going to be the first to fix their behavior? I agree Subaru should treat the customers better. Nothing sucks worse than knowing that if something happens I'm probably going to have a fight on my hands...but I've always been an honest person and someone that tells the truth and owns up to my choices. In the end, I've always come out ahead. I carry that philosophy. I'll do unto them as I'd have them do unto me. 90% of the time, it works everytime.

Lol. You need to pull your head out of the sand my friend. The reason why they are not looking out for the customer is because they are an international corporate company. They are all about money. They want to make more money then they are putting out simple. Dollars are more important then customers simple. Every customer could be honest with Subaru. Hell why do you think Subaru will do the least amount of work to fix a car? Instead of just replacing the needed parts from the get go they will do one bit at a time and drag it out for months to fix a car they could have fixed in a week. Call SOA wait for response get one part oh wait need another part call and wait again. Every car company is like this. If a car continues to fail in the same spot on stock components and the same parts fail on a modded car no matter how small the mod is it's the same parts that caused the issues. I went through this with Honda and my s2000. My ap1 diff failed. There were countless documented failures because the ap1 diff wasp too weak for the system they put it in. They tried to blame everything on my car for the faults. Fluids, tires, tire pressure,weight put into the car. All it took was one letter from my lawyer and the car was majically fixed. Why because honda was just trying to be cheap and not pay for their faulty work. Put an aftermarket LSD in and magically never had a failure ever again.

 

[ga9213]

Are you still going to feel that way if your engine blows up, you know your mods didn't cause it, and Subaru refuses to fix it under warranty because you have mods? You will be out 5 grand for a problem that wasn't your fault and wasn't caused by you in any way.

I have one of two options, demod the car and hope they don't notice the wear marks on all the bolts, or tell them the truth. Either way, if the want to deny the claim over a modification, they'll do it whether I tried to be sneaky or was honest and upfront. In my experience, I'll have a better chance being honest and up front.

At that point, if they want to deny my warranty for a totally unrelated modification, I will choose to fight it, but that's a fight I'll take on knowing I upheld my end of the bargain.

I like to call it having integrity.

You're missing our point. We aren't saying roll over if Subaru wants to deny your claim based on modification. We're saying give them the benefit of the doubt and be honest with what those modifications are.

 

[LaW]

How are you coming to the conclusion that it IS the fault of the modifications? An AccessPort doesn't do anything that would blow up an engine - in fact it's generally safer to run than the stock map, since it fixes the lean condition that exists in the stock map.

It's easy enough to log and see that for yourself. We know the ring land problem happens to stock and modified cars alike, meaning modifications are NOT what is causing the problem. Knowing this, would you shell out the $5k with a smile on your face when Subaru denies your warranty?

Yes I would. I just know that by modifying the car I am also at risk of having something happen so I am prepared to cover it. ****, I would rather beef it up rather than have the same components put back in.

The key word is "generally"... Some of the OTS maps provided by Cobb and other companies (My Perrin map for example) were almost worse on my car than the stock logs in certain driving conditions.

I agree though, the tune is key. I always would recommend to have it tuned rather then running an OTS map though as they may not be the vast improvement they are cracked up to be.

I guess what I am saying is that we are really trying to prevent detonation. If the stock tune causes a lean condition and it breaks then they cover it but if you tune it and it is a poor tune (OTS or otherwise) and detonation causes damage then is it still Subaru's fault? That is what I am getting at. We know that the pistons are less than ideal for pushing this engine but that doesn't mean Subaru should just be switching them out on anything other than a stock car.

 

[bassolis]

+1 for honesty with Subaru regarding mods.

 

[LaW]

+1 for honesty with Subaru regarding mods.

Yup.

Bottom line though get a good tune, eliminate detonation, reduce/eliminate blow-by, keep up on maintenance even more so than a stock motor, datalog if you have modifications to hopefully catch any issues before they cause major damage and you will have a reliable car.

The more you do to the car the more attention you have to pay to it. A pro-tune, an OTS tune or the stock tune could all be the cause of a motor failing. That is reality, I have had OTS tunes from Cobb and Perrin that sucks and some OTS tunes that ran great! I have also had a Pro-tune from a well renowned tuner that was complete **** and then a perfect tune from a tuner that didn't come as highly recommended.

Stock is stock that is the only way we can know for sure who is at fault. There are so many factors when you start to modify you car and much that can cause parts to fail. If your car breaks and you are running a tune done by someone else, who is at fault? Subaru didn't tune the car so why do they have to pay?

 

[Tobamory]

So what's all your views on the 320r map by subarus pro-r brand vs the stock 300

I can deft tell the diff from my old original 300 much more punchy

 

[LaW]

Since this is a UK only option most here will not have much experience with it. Hopefully someone else from the UK could chime in.

 

[Xaqtly]

Sorry, you guys have been completely missing my point. Here's the thing: If you are willing to pay for a short block replacement that wasn't your fault, you're an idiot. It has nothing to do with honesty.

1. This engine has a history of ring land failure, both stock and modified cars. Mods are IRRELEVANT in this discussion.
2. Since we know for an indisputable fact that mods are not causing this problem, as it continues to happen to both modified and stock cars - always the same, always piston #4 - the problem MUST be Subaru's responsibility.
3. Let's be clear on this point: This problem is ALWAYS Subaru's responsibility since, as I just mentioned twice, we already know mods are irrelevant with respect to this problem. Obviously if you over-rev the engine that's your fault, but that's not what we're talking about.
4. KNOWING that the problem is Subaru's responsibility to fix, you need to do whatever it takes to make sure Subaru fixes it.
5. This is NOT ABOUT MAKING SUBARU PAY FOR YOUR MISTAKE. Since we have established many many times that this problem is not caused by modifications, it is Subaru's responsibility to fix.
6. If you want to tell them you have mods and take the chance that they will not warranty the repair because of it, that's on YOU. Do not pretend to take the moral high ground on this one, and stop defending Subaru. This is a problem that is Subaru's responsibility, and they have denied warranty claims for this problem.

Bottom line though get a good tune, eliminate detonation, reduce/eliminate blow-by, keep up on maintenance even more so than a stock motor, datalog if you have modifications to hopefully catch any issues before they cause major damage and you will have a reliable car.

And this is part of the problem. What part of "this happens to stock and modified cars" didn't you understand? I had a tune. I had data logs. There was no detonation. Two of my pistons exploded. And while my car was being looked at, the rep from Subaru was checking on THREE other 2011 STis in my region ALONE with the exact same problem.

NOTHING you do can prevent this problem. NOTHING. It's either going to happen, or it isn't. If you want to be honest about mods with your dealer and hope that both they and Subaru of America have an equivalent understanding of this issue, i.e. mods are not what causes this problem, then go for it. But if they deny your claim, they are denying a repair for something that is not your fault. And once they do that, you are out of luck and you can't repeal it.

So what are you "taking responsibility" for, again? That's right, you're taking responsibility for SUBARU'S mistake. Not yours. If you want to do that and you get denied, don't expect any sympathy from me, or anybody else. It's your choice.

I will add that so far it looks like Subaru is being good about repairing these under warranty, probably because they do understand that whatever is happening is not being caused by modifications. I'm very happy with how they handled my case, and my dealer is very mod-friendly, they even sell Accessports. This may be a non-issue entirely for most people this happens to.

The issue here is that you seem to think removing mods is "lying" to Subaru, which is complete BS. Mods are irrelevant in the context of this problem. It's Subaru's responsibility to fix it EITHER WAY, and going back to stock is simply making sure that they do that. That's not "tricking" Subaru into paying for something they shouldn't be, they should be paying for it EITHER WAY.

If you want to take the chance that they'll approve it when you have modifications, that's your choice. But don't sit there and condemn somebody who goes back to stock to make sure Subaru pays for it. It's Subaru's responsibility. They SHOULD pay for it. The fact that they DON'T pay for it sometimes based on modifications means that Subaru is being dishonest with YOU.

None of us - not me, not you, nobody - should put up with that. Try to understand where I'm coming from here - this isn't about cheating Subaru. This is about ensuring that they fix something that is their responsibility to fix. That's all.

 

[severe]

I didn't even read the rest of it after #1. You are wrong. Mods are relevant still. Subaru can easily argue, and with FULL merit, the modification of the tune significantly increased the likely-hood of the problem occurring and also now places the parts outside of operating conditions dictated by Subaru thus beyond their control and absolving them of any responsibility.

Yes your point is valid to an extent, if a problem has enough repeat occurrences in stock form you can make a legal case that this is a manufacturing or assembly defect and would have happened regardless of the modification. However in a legal circumstance this is a burden on you to prove which will be difficult. You do not know the figures of stock motors versus tuned. Individuals on this forum are not a reliable source of information in such a case because people DO and WILL lie even here. Several have been caught in their lies even in this thread. Even Subaru will not have the most accurate figures due to people lying.

The only information we have is Laws survey, which in fact shows highest percentage of ringland failures have occurred on modified vehicles and the smallest percentage of failures occurred on stock vehicles. Certainly this could be correlated that most of the cars here are also modified however there's no other data to go on and everything you say is speculation at best but using percentages helps eliminate that. You are not entitled to retain an engine warranty while performing modifications that modify a massive amount of vital operating parameters. If you step back and look at it from a business perspective you would realize you sound like a cry baby at this point.

The only way we can get Subaru to claim responsibility is if everyone with failures fills out a complaint with NHTSA, however no one seems to do that and there's only ~10 ringland complaints over 5 years worth of cars.

 

[Socko]

Just because this occurs without mods doesn't mean that adding hp isnt going to add to the likelyhood of the issue. Until someone actually for a fact figures out what causes this you cant factually say more hp didn't contribute to the failure.

I to some degree agree that to me it seems like piston failure is something that is just going to happen or not. Though my thought is that it seems much more common on 91 acn, with big turbos, or with track cars. That doesnt change the fact that subaru doesn't warranty your car forever. Maybe stock the motor would have lasted 75k but modded it lasts 20k. Sure a 75k motor is crappy in this day and age but it doesn't change the fact that more power could without a doubt take something workable, and push it outside of the workable threshhold to failure.

Every tune knocks sometimes, so you saying there was no detonation is honestly, suspect. Understand that the knock sensors detection range can be adjusted and its never adjsuted to monitor all load/rpm fields so jsut cause it doesn't see knock doesn't mean there isn't any. Besides the fact that it isn't an infalable device, it can see things that aren't knock and therefor theoreticly not see things that are knock.

I get that your pissed, but dont be pissed at us. Consider toning it down a notch or 2 imo. This thread is one that is VERY useful to the community. Filling it up with angry banter isn't helping a bunch.