[Jay11STI]

This up there ^ is excellent information! Good job Lowbee ? I wonder why there is a differance in the port sizes. This is not the first ive herd of this on manifolds either. I will update the original post with this as we get more info rolling in.

 

[Jay11STI]

Are you wondering why the exhaust tube from each exhaust port is smaller than the collector-to-uppipe tube?

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

Yes that and why the primary inner diameter is at 1.5" compared to the secondary port inner diameter at 1.85"

 

[Jay11STI]

I've been debating on which ELH to purchase for my '19 STI and have also been looking at materials, dimensions, etc.. As of now, I plan to stay at stage 1 or stage 2 levels. I'm considering both ends of the spectrum in terms of price and material quality.. either the HKS header for ~$500 (and then sending it to SwainTech) or the Killer B 2 bolt header (SwainTech coated) for $1670.

HKS 4-2-1 Equal Length Header
409 SS - cheapest, prone to oxidation/surface rust, typically used by OEM for exhaust systems, finite lifespan
Stamped steel collector
High production, hot/fast welds (potential cracking at collector?)
BrenTuning recommends it as the budget alternative to the Killer B header
Can be found for ~$500

Dimensions:
2mm (0.079") SUH409 SS
42.7mm (1.68") Primary OD
~38.7mm (1.52") Primary ID? (calculated)
52mm (2.05") Secondary OD
~48mm (1.89") Secondary ID (calculated)

Killer B 4-1 Holy Header (2 Bolt for comparison to HKS)
321 SS - stronger, lower thermal conductivity (less energy lost due to heat transfer), will probably outlast the car, used for aircraft exhaust manifolds
Cast 347 SS merge collector
Symmetrical primary design (tube length & bend geometry) - unique among other non-symmetrical ELH.
Probably the best header on the market.
Killer B is obviously the best in terms of quality, engineering & support for the community. Made in the USA and hand welded. Lifetime warranty.
$1350

Dimensions:
0.065" 321 SS
1.5" Primary ID
1.85" Secondary ID

I know that I should got with the Killer B header.. I just have to rationalize the nearly ~$1,700 price tag for the SwainTech coated version for my daily driver.

Adding the SwainTech White Lightning coating should reduce radiant heat lowering under hood temperatures. Ideally, it will also help retain more heat in the pipes marginally improving spool and boost response, The SwainTech coating is 0.015" thick compared to other ceramic coatings which are typically 0.002". The HKS header should be coated regardless to prevent oxidation/surface rust. I almost wouldn't want to coat the Killer B header and cover up its beauty.

Im not so crazy about the welds on the HKS either also the fact that its basically a raw finish on it. The reason i think the HKS is just so popular is because its price. I wonder why Bren recommends specifically the HKS as an alternative to the KB. Maybe the gains are close to the KB ELH?

You know another option for ELH for you could be the MAP header. With the black thermal coating its around $1200. It seems to be a quality handmade piece. Not alot of guys have it but i believe somewhere on NASIOC it performed really well.

 

[Jay11STI]

Great info so far guys. I think this thread will be helpful to some out there. So does anyone have any more info or specs on any of the other headers out there?

 

[Jay11STI]

Like what? Compared to knock-offs, Ebay, materials, coatings, fab, custom, twin scroll, etc...?

I'll share info on our stuff, and we have a lot of info on other products out there, but it would be better for those companies to be involved with sharing their information here, not us. A lot of these companies you'll need to reach out to as they just do not get involved with enthusiasts the way we like to.

Anything to help serve the purpose of this tread. I feel like when someone is trying to shop around and hunt for the right manifold, there is just so much missing information. I wanted to try and collect as much as possible and put it all in one place (this thread) to help others out down the line. You sir have given us plenty of good educational info on your product and greatly appreciated. I havent seen some of the other brands being active on the forums so i figured we could squeeze some info out of the community rather than calling place to place and being on the phone for awhile.

While I am a big fan of Killer B products, Full Race should not be ignored, especially if you want twin-scroll.
I have some of the old, heavy, schedule 40, 316 SS one. All have been modified to make then work better.
I believe my primaries are 1.62" ID. I made my own 321 SS twin-scroll up-pipe and make 470 on this tiny ID piping.
What they offer now is tubing. Geoff Racier knows his stuff.

I didnt want to ignore Full Race i just couldnt find much info if any on their spec. I know they have a TS ELH option but most of us dont run TS. Although, if i was comparing all TS manifold options then they would have definitly been on the list. Are the specs you have up there for a twin scroll manifold?

1.62" ID is considered "big tube". FWIW, people have made 700+ whp on Killer B's "tiny" 1.5" ID primaries.

So is that 1.62" ID basicially the bench mark number that would make an ELH be considered "big tube" ?


I have updated the thread with the submitted data/specs.

 

[Jay11STI]

View attachment 58808

BNM also offer both 4-1 and twin scroll options. Really nice looking bit of kit! Waiting on a set fo the 4-1 to arrive and will do so overlays once it's tuned comparing RCM UEL header. Primary ID 1.65"

This is the first ive herd of this but it looks like a sweet piece right there! Looking forward to your comparisons.

 

[Jay11STI]

If the info laid out here is going to be truly comparative, I would recommend dropping comparisons to twin scroll. TS vs SS are different turbine technologies and as such have differences in design for optimized performance; offering difference in performance characteristics.

Yeah i wasnt planning on comparing to anything twin scroll. I know that is a whole other world in and of itself. This comparison thread is for single scroll sets ups since most of us with the EJ257 are single scroll

I purchased a Killer B Holy Header with the SwainTech coating today

Here's how I rationalized the "financial investment":

• It's the only header made of 321 SS with a cast merge collector. While 321 may be considered overkill for a daily driver.. it's stronger & more crack-resistant (added peace of mind) and has a lower thermal conductivity (less energy lost due to heat transfer) compared to 304 & 409. It's made in the USA and has a lifetime warranty if it ever does fail.
• It's the only header with a symmetrical primary design (tube length & bend geometry) and has the shortest primaries possible. These features reduce header volume, maintain high & consistent exhaust gas velocity, and should improve spool & responsiveness.
• Available for purchase with the SwainTech White Lightning coating (rather than shipping the header to SwainTech yourself). The coating should reduce radiant heat and help retain more heat in the pipes; lowering under hood temperatures and maximizing exhaust velocity hopefully improving spool & boost response. If you're already spending this much.. why not spend a bit more for the very best results?
• All of this leads to a header that provides the best gains in VE. That means improved fuel economy and saved money at the pump, right?

I'm a fan of over-engineered products. Maybe some of these features are great in theory, but nearly imperceptible compared to other ELHs.. but at least I'll never have buyer's remorse or worry about a sub-par product. Killer B is at the top in terms of quality, engineering & providing support to the Subaru community. How many other companies do you see actively participating in forum discussions? I can only think of a couple.

I'm looking forward to getting rid of the inefficient OEM header and seeing how the KBHH transforms the car.

Congrats on a very nice piece! Let us know what you think after you've installed and tune the car for the KB ELH.

 

[Jay11STI]

Jay and Nick,

Thank you for starting a genuine conversation and for Killer B for the insightful comments.

Something I want you to understand that hasn't been stated before is that at least in my anecdotal issues almost all if not all of these headers may eventually fail. They fail in that the vibration caused by the engine and the lack of a a vibration dampening flex pipe will cause this. For this reason I suggest something with a lifetime warranty. I have personally had experience with Killer B and the warranty experience was awesome.

This is something that I feel you need to take into account when deciding on a purchase.

Sparky

You're welcome, this thread has turned out to be very informative and educational.

As for the failures of aftermarket manifolds, i mean anything failing is a possibility.. I think manifold failures are sometimes blown out of proportion and there are so many reasons as to why a component fails regardless if its ELH or UELH. Lets also keep in mind that most users running these aftermarket manifolds are using them for the purpose of making more power than the car came with from the factory. Yes components like exhaust manifolds are designed to take the abuse, heat, and punishment. Somethings are just still unpredictable.

I do agree, if you are going to make the investment when purchasing and ELH then warranty should be something to consider. Another thing to consider should be how you will be using your ELH. If you are going to just be daily driving the car with some fun on the side then you may not necessarily need the most expensive header. If you are someone chasing numbers whether its on the dyno, track, or street then yes you may want be best possible ELH out there to handle the abuse.

One could also flip this logic the other way around too Lol ^^^ You could have someone getting the best possible ELH for a daily driver and then have the race car with the cheapest ELH running it until it breaks. I guess what im trying to get at here is that the failures are just so unpredictable lol.

 

[Jay11STI]

kinda hate to revive a older post but i see ETS came out with a new ELH. i wonder how it will perform. here is the info from their site

• 1 7/8" primary runners with 2 1/2" secondary for maximum flow.
• CNC mandrel bent runners.
• Custom .100 USA made thick wall tubing for durability.
• Low angle 4-1 merge collector for maximum flow and exhaust scavenging.
• Slip fit connection for ease of removal and installation.
• 2-bolt or Vband up pipe flange options.
• Stock replacement design.
• Low profile design for maximum clearance.
• Surfaced flanges for a leak free seal.
• 304 Stainless steel construction.

ETS Subaru STI V2 MaxFlow Header

The wait is over! Extreme Turbo Systems is proud to release our new Subaru STI V2 MaxFlow Exhaust Header for the 2004+ Subaru STI. We designed our ETS V2 MaxFlow Header to be a direct factory replacement header. We start off with large 1 7/8 primary runners that come together in a true low angle...

www.extremeturbosystems.com

Nonsense! Old thread, pssshh lol. I actually saw this header posted the other day on the book of faces (facebook). Im glad someone thought to put it here. This looks to be like a "big tube" header. Im curious to see what the gains are on this one when compared to others. I will update the original post with the supplied info on the ETS ELH. Hopefully someone picks one of these up and can update us more indept.

 

[Jay11STI]

Pretty nice gains from the ETS elh. Lets keep in mind, its also on a car with an ETS turbo kit.

 

[Jay11STI]

Alright gents, i finally made the plung and went for an ELH. I used my own thread here as a guide lol. I chose to go with the HKS ELH. Now before anyone calls me out on it, ill be the first to say yes I know ive talked some trash about it at some point on here. I made my choice for this based on the information and numbers posted here, and how budget friendly this piece is. I already know its not the best out there but this suits my needs and more importantly my pocket. If budget wasnt an issue then it would have been the KB manifold. If time wasnt an issue then i would have gone for the BNM 4-1 ELH provided Evan could make a 1.5" ELH. Unfortunatly, that piece is about a 12 week wait period and that wont work with my timeline.

Anyways heres the meat and potatoes, the HKS 4-2-1 ELH. The box comes with gaskets, hardware, and a heat shield with clamps. Although i dont think the gaskets are as great like the grimmspeed gaskets, the ones provided will do just fine. Also included was some heat protectant wrap to put around the oil pan. One other thing to mention, I was surprised how thin the piping is. I guess thats also why this piece is so light compared to my previous set up of a ported oem manifold with crosspipe.

I went ahead and took some measurements prior to install just to verify the numbers. Not that i think HKS would lie but id figure id confirm for myself. They are pretty much spot on give or take some positioning of tool. It was kind of hard trying to hold the caliper steady while trying to take a picture with the phone at the same time.

I wasnt too fond of the heat shield due it causing a rattle so i took it off. Here is a shot of it a day later after install. I will be installing the heat wrap around the oil pan as soon as i have time.

 

[Jay11STI]

Great choice! Ive had an hks header for 20k miles now and still going strong. I gained 17whp/33wtq on stock turbo/block compared to oem uel header on 93. It really mellowed out the sound and drives smooth with improvements in mid/top end power. Congrats on choosing a great header!

Thanks! Now thats what i want to here! Curious, did you wrap or coat yours for it to last 20K or did you leave it bare as i did?

I agree that its so smooth now while driving. I have it paired with my invidia catless dp and my Greddy Evo3 exhaust. The car just sounds sooo different. The cold start sounds amazing, so smooth. I will say that my rumble is pretty much completly gone with this exhaust combo. The only time i get a hint of the classic subie rumble is on cold start. I will also add that i dont have any rasp thankfully. All in all, the tone is just different and hard to explain. It will take some getting used to but its already growing on me.

Im scheduled for a retune on the dyno in 2 weeks. Im curious to see what gains i get out of this. Im not chasing numbers so even if i get a little bit ill be happy. I also added a perrin turbo inlet to the car today. I noticed right away that the spool of the stock turbo is quicker. Boost came in like lion lol. Im not sure if its due to the header or the inlet, probably both lol. Either way, i cant wait to hear this thing scream on the dyno. The sounds of ELH + EWG will be incredible 🙃

 

[Jay11STI]

Nice! I just updated this to add the new KB VE header

 

[Jay11STI]

Just out of curiosity I don't see the IAG ELH, any reason ?

Yes as Karlot mentioned, i dont know if anyone has it. If they do, it would be great for them add to the collection here. I too have also herd its a rebranded Tomei. It sure does look awfully similar

 

[Jay11STI]

I would. At the power level 1000cc injectors will support, you won't be at a level where there would be any appreciable benefit. Just a bigger hole in your wallet.

I agree with KB. Even if you upgade the turbo later on, you will still be limited by the 1000cc injectors. I dont think you will be anywhere near the power level that the standard KB manifold wouldnt be able to handle.

I do wonder, at what power level or even at what size turbo would the KB VE Max header be benificial over the regular sized KB manifold.

 

[Jay11STI]

Yeah I hear you, I have already ordered the KBHH VE MAX headers & was also a tad worried the extra large secondary 2.35” ID is too large (cause problems?) for the grimspeed Up Pipe with 1.92”ID & current stock turbo as well as being overkill as you have stated.
However If there weren’t any risks with having such a large secondary I could just keep the existing order.. and have capability for a much higher flow build in the future..
Also it’s only an extra $300 Aud.. thoughts?

I guess the price isnt really the concern and thats fine lol. I dont think there is a risk with the set up you chose. Although i think the car may perform better if slightly with the standard size. I have no technical data to support my statement so take it with some salt so to speak. KB himself would probably be better suited to answer and provide the hard facts.

Heres another thing, im assuming you will be tuning the car to really take advantage of your new ELH. Have you considered asking you tuner to see what they think?

 

[Jay11STI]

Picked up a set of Tomei ELH for my 12' sti.
Before I tackle installation, I've tried to get good measurements with my caliper.
I had my headers coated with Cerakote for corrosion resistance before I measured, so this may effect the O.D by a tiny bit.
View attachment 63414

Thanks for the specs and great picture btw! I think even with the coating, the OD numbers were still on par with what I had found originally. If the coating did effect the OD it would be very very tiny like you said. A couple of tenths is nothing. I updated the thread to include your findings. Thanks again.

Lets keep this going, who will be the one to chime in with a fresh Invidia piece???

 

[Jay11STI]

Nice gains, although im not too familiar with dynapack readings. Before anyone misreads, those numbers posted are in NM (newtonmeter) and its a little different than our ftlbs. 676nm is about 500 ftlbs of torque!

 

[Jay11STI]

Casey James, thanks for submitting your findings! Its nice to see someone with something a little different. Based on your measurements, its looks like everything is as advertised. That thing looks pretty sweet in those pics, huge too. Based on the those numbers, its definetly a larger unit compared to others but yet a little bit smaller compared to the the KB MAX VE or the ETS Max Flow. When comparing to those 2 monsters, the MAP isnt big. But compared to other regular sized ELH, the MAP is bigger. Not sure whether to consider this a "big tube" header or not to be honest. I think the Max VE and Max Flow really up the standard for that category lol.

Would definetly like to get someone in here with an Invidia ELH, both regular and "race" if possible. Same goes for the Perrin pieces. Both of those ELH were so popular back in the day.