ELH wrap? or do nothing

killerbmotorsport · Feb 11, 2017

mheyman said:
As two of us have noted, DEI Ti wrap seems to hold up well enough. I'll post up when I do replace it, but after 15k it's not at all aging

From my personal experience using DEI wrap in well over 20+ application, it does the job. We've used it when it was required due to time constraints because the application process from Swain Tech is 12+ days; prep and applying and firing several layers. When you're in a time crunch, something is better than nothing.

mheyman said:
which does make me wonder about its thermal performance.

IR cameras are cheap now a days. An OK one can be had for a few hundred dollars. We've done some rudimentary comparisons based of engine feedback and under hood temperatures. Really more to quell my concerns than anything. Nothing more reassuring than self verification.

mheyman said:
Great high temperature insulation is almost always fragile (far to fragile for use on a header) unless it is solely reflective. Whatever, I'd bet it's still far better than any thin coating, and Swaintech is only thick for a coating. It's not really thick at all at 15mil.

A coating is a thermal barrier and a wrap is more of an insulation. In the world of thermal dynamics, there are nuances to their process and functionality. Really, the best insulator is air. 'Traditional' wrap uses air and glass fibers, and the newer DEI Titanium wrap is air and lava based (no splinters). Lava has been used for 75+ years in industry as a superior insulator and it has finally trickled down to more common products like this wrap. Ceramic coatings have been popular in aerospace for several decades and its use has also become more widespread in motorsports as well; piston crowns, valves, exhaust ports, manifolds, turbine housings, etc...

mheyman said:
Whatever, I'd bet it's still far better than any thin coating, and Swaintech is only thick for a coating. It's not really thick at all at 15mil.

Again, comparing wrap to coating is not an apples to apples comparison. We've never measure the Swain Tech at anywhere near their minimum spec. It's nearly always double that value. Or at least with the manifolds it is. If you were compare to the Cerakote that everyone and their mother is offering, it's a much better products and w-a-y thicker. The Cerakots and other 'jet-hot' type products do maintain a good appearance much longer though as the Swain looks horrid after use (if you care about that).

UrdnotWrexSTi said:
Can I coat the headers later, if I wanted to? Say, after 10k miles at least?

Absolutely!

I know it sounds like I'm 'pushing' the Swain Tech, but I want to be clear, this is based on our findings and usages. To date ~1/3 of the headers we sell customers option for the coating. So we see a lot of it, and get a lot of feedback on it as well. As far as pushing it to make money, that's not the case for a couple reasons. OP isn't even contemplating our headers, so we have no potential for a sale here. And two, the 'dealer' discount Swain Tech offers is miniscule... it covers our shipping to them (which we don't charge the customer). We do it completely our of convenience to the customer, because we get asked about it so often, it made sense to offer it as an option.

DaveC113 · Feb 11, 2017

I used Swain once about 15 years ago, it was a disaster.

I had a 4g63 exhaust manifold coated that I had spent hours porting and polishing, Swain got a bunch of overspray INSIDE my fucking manifold and just sent it back to me, didn't clean it up.

They added credit card fees to shipping charges without saying a word, when I called them up they admitted it and when I told them they are violating their agreement with their credit card processor they told me to fuck off. I don't think so Swain, fuck you.

Also, the white Swain coating is POROUS. It absorbs any liquid that touches it. I have to wonder what the difference in performance is between new and oil-impregnated coatings? There are other coatings that do a decent job and won't absorb liquid, are easy to clean and stay nice looking for years.

Anyways, my great experience with Swain coatings, lol.... Personally, I won't give them another dime.

ebricky · Feb 11, 2017

I would wrap. I took out my oil pan running over a rock on the highway. 5 quarts of oil sprayed everywhere, including my wrapped downpipe. it smoked. a lot. even after I got the car back it smoked for a good while. But it did burn off. No fires, no nothing. I say wrap it. a small amount of oil on the wrap is not going to be the end of the world, it will burn off just as it would on unwrapped headers.

killerbmotorsport · Feb 12, 2017

DaveC113 said:
the white Swain coating is POROUS.

Where'd you get that from?

mheyman · Feb 12, 2017

DaveC113 said:
I used Swain once about 15 years ago, it was a disaster.
. . . Swain got a bunch of overspray INSIDE my fucking manifold and just sent it back to me, didn't clean it up.

You're not the only one that has had issues with Swaintech, and one notable one was recent.

DaveC113 · Feb 12, 2017

killerbmotorsport said:
Where'd you get that from?

I had a bunch of crap coated and if oil touches it, it soaks in, permanently staining it.

After all this time I should give them a break, but fuck that. I've rarely to never been so pissed off and gotten such a poor quality product, got overcharged for it, and then got treated like shit when I call them. Seriously, fuck Swain. Go elsewhere.

And to Swaintech, this is what happens when you fuck people. 15 years ago internet wasn't a big deal and you probably thought it didn't matter. But ototh, you have no idea how much business it cost you and is currently, still costing you because you're a total d-bag.

DaveC113 · Feb 12, 2017

ebricky said:
I would wrap. I took out my oil pan running over a rock on the highway. 5 quarts of oil sprayed everywhere, including my wrapped downpipe. it smoked. a lot. even after I got the car back it smoked for a good while. But it did burn off. No fires, no nothing. I say wrap it. a small amount of oil on the wrap is not going to be the end of the world, it will burn off just as it would on unwrapped headers.

I would get a normal ceramic coating that seals the metal, then wrap it. Like the coating Grimmspeed offers for about $50 or so extra on their downpipes.

I agree the comments about wrap turning into an incendiary device are overblown.

killerbmotorsport · Feb 12, 2017

DaveC113 said:
I had a bunch of crap coated and if oil touches it, it soaks in, permanently staining it.

It's a textures finish. You can't wire it down you have to apply a process for the texture. Wire brush and brake clean will remove most things, but if you cook it on, it's not going to come off. It's not porous though. It requires grinding to remove and once you grind off the texture you can clearly see it's solid.

DaveC113 said:
I would get a normal ceramic coating that seals the metal, then wrap it.

I don't know of any coatings that will warranty with wrap. I've seen other coatings stained too. You get oil on an exhaust that's 900* and it's going to leave a mark, but won't effect the functionality. Cerakote is everywhere and cheap, as anyone with the capacity to paint and access to a home oven can apply it. IMO the major benefit of Cerakote is that it provides a barrier to oxygen. If you can find a vendor that warranties with wrap, I say go for it.

I think we can all agree that if you were wrongly charged for a fee, that's wrong.

Were the flanges clearly marked where to coat and where not to coat? Even though we send them lots of (the same) products we still need to clearly mark every part regarding coating areas. The process is also quite brutal; molten ceramic propelled at supersonic speeds onto the metal, making precise control difficult. Even with the occasional clean-up of some areas necessary post processing, I still find the performance and longevity well worth the costs involved.

Like I said, anyone can understand your frustration with your experience, but what is a reasonable restitution to you? Your bashing causing them to loose the amount of business equal to your own losses and then some, or burning the company to the ground?

DaveC113 · Feb 12, 2017

killerbmotorsport said:
It's a textures finish. You can't wire it down you have to apply a process for the texture. Wire brush and brake clean will remove most things, but if you cook it on, it's not going to come off. It's not porous though. It requires grinding to remove and once you grind off the texture you can clearly see it's solid.

I don't know of any coatings that will warranty with wrap. I've seen other coatings stained too. You get oil on an exhaust that's 900* and it's going to leave a mark, but won't effect the functionality. Cerakote is everywhere and cheap, as anyone with the capacity to paint and access to a home oven can apply it. IMO the major benefit of Cerakote is that it provides a barrier to oxygen. If you can find a vendor that warranties with wrap, I say go for it.

I think we can all agree that if you were wrongly charged for a fee, that's wrong.

Were the flanges clearly marked where to coat and where not to coat? Even though we send them lots of (the same) products we still need to clearly mark every part regarding coating areas. The process is also quite brutal; molten ceramic propelled at supersonic speeds onto the metal, making precise control difficult. Even with the occasional clean-up of some areas necessary post processing, I still find the performance and longevity well worth the costs involved.

Like I said, anyone can understand your frustration with your experience, but what is a reasonable restitution to you? Your bashing causing them to loose the amount of business equal to your own losses and then some, or burning the company to the ground?

I have no goal in mind other than sharing my experience. It's not up to me to make decisions for others as far as how they spend their money or who they do business with. They were absolutely not interested in doing anything for me whatsoever as far as restitution, they basically told me to fuck off if I didn't like it and asked me not to send them anything else, as if I was planning on it. :rofl:

I also run my own business, I sell internet-direct and so deal directly with my customers and end users of my products every day. I couldn't even imagine doing what Swain did, it's inconceivable to me to treat anyone that way, especially when they're doing business with me.

On the manifold, they didn't mask off the end that attaches to the turbo well enough and got a bunch of ceramic inside of the manifold, which was already ported/polished. It was on there really good, I spend a couple hours removing it, re-polishing the manifold. I took a lot of time on that manifold, and managed to get to every part inside of it, getting it back from Swain in that condition was so disappointing. They had to have known their masking material was damaged and leaking, all they had to do was look at it. But instead of fixing their mistake they said "fuck it".

The manifold + the extra "shipping" charges + the horrible phone call just make me wonder wtf they're thinking.

On the OP, I agree a regular ceramic coating's main benefit is like paint, it seals the surface of the metal and I'm not sure I'd worry too much about wrapping on top of that damaging the coating.

Watson · Feb 13, 2017

killerbmotorsport said:
My 2 cents... If you can afford the cost and downtime, I am a big fan of the Swain Tech Multi-Layer Ceramic Coating. It performs better than any coating I am aware of. It performs to the same level as the market's best wraps, with no downsides of a wrap.

Does the SwainTech coating affect the warranty on your Holy Header if purchased as an option when ordering the header? I'm trying to decide whether or not to go with this on mine for my initial mods in a couple months.

Barring fluids getting on the coating, does it keep that white color over time or is there natural discoloration over heating/cooling cycles?

ilovecarbs · Feb 13, 2017

formula one headers are coated (zircotec) not wrapped...

killerbmotorsport · Feb 13, 2017

Watson said:
Does the SwainTech coating affect the warranty on your Holy Header if purchased as an option when ordering the header?

Not at all, that's why we offer it as an option

Watson said:
Barring fluids getting on the coating, does it keep that white color over time or is there natural discoloration over heating/cooling cycles?

On these engines they turn a grey over time. After the first HOT cycles you may notice some binders coming to the surface. This is all normal. The Swain Tech Multi-Layer Ceramic Coating functions extremely well, but it's also about the ugliest coating out there.

Watson · Feb 13, 2017

killerbmotorsport said:
Not at all, that's why we offer it as an option

Excellent! If my tuner ordered a coated Holy Header from you this week, would there be any issue with them receiving it by May?

DaveC113 · Feb 13, 2017

ilovecarbs said:
formula one headers are coated (zircotec) not wrapped...

Seems like a nice alternative, thanks!

killerbmotorsport · Feb 13, 2017

Watson said:
Excellent! If my tuner ordered a coated Holy Header from you this week, would there be any issue with them receiving it by May?

That should work!

DaveC113 said:
Seems like a nice alternative, thanks!

IIRC the materials and processes are extremely similar, just located on different continents.

If you really want to double+ the cost of your header, then look up a company called 'headershield.com' They apply a process similar to what you find on exotic supercars and in F1/Indy applications. I spent a bit of time talking with one of the engineers and a process guy at PRI, and was considering having the process applied to a downpipe fpr testing. The cost was quoted at +$1,300

so I passed because I don't see anyone in the Suby market interested in spending this kind of money... and that was for a simple downpipe. A header would cost many times more. The process is extremely labor intensive, although, very cool.

DaveC113 · Feb 13, 2017

ilovecarbs said:
formula one headers are coated (zircotec) not wrapped...

killerbmotorsport said:
That should work!

IIRC the materials and processes are extremely similar, just located on different continents.

If you really want to double+ the cost of your header, then look up a company called 'headershield.com' They apply a process similar to what you find on exotic supercars and in F1/Indy applications. I spent a bit of time talking with one of the engineers and a process guy at PRI, and was considering having the process applied to a downpipe fpr testing. The cost was quoted at +$1,300 so I passed because I don't see anyone in the Suby market interested in spending this kind of money... and that was for a simple downpipe. A header would cost many times more. The process is extremely labor intensive, although, very cool.

Yeah, I'll leave that for NASA.

Save

mheyman · Feb 14, 2017

Seems one or two of my posts are missing from this thread. Hmm. In particular one that started outlining a header "design". I'll see if I have it in text and repost? I come here to add to it.

Templar · Feb 21, 2017

"While weather does affect things there is no reason to be so conservative."

Let me clarify that...I was speaking in terms of a heat soak issue. Like sitting in traffic in 110 degree day and allowing the car to cool down a bit after traffic started moving before a long pull or heavy boosting.

Cake Eater · Mar 3, 2017

@ S1monQc

Why the dislike to my post, please comment as to why.

My 400kw 25/30 R33 Skyline had a coated and wrapped exhaust manifold and dump.

My 90kw NB MX5 had coated and wrapped exhaust manifold.

Both cars had alot of time racing around Wakefield Park and Eastern Creek doing supersprints, 20 minute track session and alot of time at the drag strip at WSID for the R33.

All I found was much lower under bonnet temps.

Disclaimer: the R33 had a custom exhaust manifold made from steam pipe and the MX5 had mild steel headers if you are talking metallurgy.

On that the old TOZ4 exhaust housing on the R33 was coated an wore a beenie as well.

If coating and lagging is good enough for the turbos and exhausts on ships to reduce engine room heat and increase efficiency it's good enough for me.

I gingerly await your reply...

yamahaSHO · Mar 3, 2017

killerbmotorsport said:
Not at all, that's why we offer it as an option

On these engines they turn a grey over time. After the first HOT cycles you may notice some binders coming to the surface. This is all normal. The Swain Tech Multi-Layer Ceramic Coating functions extremely well, but it's also about the ugliest coating out there.

With my S2000, I sprayed ceramic paint over the SwainTech coating and I didn't get any thing separating or bubbling up. Given that this is a track car, it's gotten plenty hot. Maybe the coating over it is helping.

ELH wrap? or do nothing

killerbmotorsport

DaveC113

ebricky

killerbmotorsport

mheyman

DaveC113

DaveC113

killerbmotorsport

DaveC113

Watson

ilovecarbs

killerbmotorsport

Watson

DaveC113

killerbmotorsport

DaveC113

mheyman

Templar

Cake Eater

yamahaSHO

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