IW STi Forum banner

81 - 100 of 290 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
And while that is great all of us know it is possible and can be done. The argument was over how one member stated that all motors making that tuned right will never blow which is not true. Another thing to note is that this primarily is a problem in the GR motors not to discredit the set up you have, but for some reason the GD chassis EJ257 hold up better as far as ringlands go.

I've seen a few GR's hold up under higher whp conditions with great tunes and I've seen catastrophic engine failure on great tunes. Its just the luck of the draw.
While I do agree with you in part about how it seems to be luck of the draw with the GRs and even the 07s. I would like to add that the tune plays a far larger roll in the longevity of a motor than many people relies. One of the factors that many people have speculated about that is leading to ruined motors is the addition of avcs on both intake and exhaust cams of the GRs. Most tuners have admited to just leaving it alone when tuning and leaving it at the stock settings.

Also we here on the web have no idea if those coming on here telling us about their blown motors are not lying though their teeth about abuse and other factors. What we need to do is analyze the facts and look more in depth into the problem, not jump to conclusions and mock others to discredit their theorys. If you disagree then conduct the research to provide proof for your claims.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
While I do agree with you in part about how it seems to be luck of the draw with the GRs and even the 07s. I would like to add that the tune plays a far larger roll in the longevity of a motor than many people relies. One of the factors that many people have speculated about that is leading to ruined motors is the addition of avcs on both intake and exhaust cams of the 07 and GRs. Most tuners have admited to just leaving it alone when tuning and leaving it at the stock settings.

Also we here on the web have no idea if those coming on here telling us about their blown motors are not lying though their teeth about abuse and other factors. What we need to do is analyze the facts and look more in depth into the problem, not jump to conclusions and mock others to discredit their theorys. If you disagree then conduct the research to provide proof for your claims.....
Nooblish q, 07s have dual avcs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,316 Posts
Hi fellas,

I've been following this thread as well as many others and I've determined that I'd love to buy a GR but I'm not going to pull the trigger until I'm comfortable spending the money to build a motor.

I've read the turbo build sticky at the top of this forum and my question is this......

Is it realistically going to cost me about 4 grand to build a motor that will safely run 380-450 whp? What are the most important things I should be looking at in the build for these power levels?

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like a stout daily driver build for a fair amount of money without paying huge $$ for components that would only be needed for huge power levels.

Recommendations?
I was quoted $2500 Installed for forged drop in pistons

You can also get a built block for $3000 and then pay to have someone install it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
311 Posts
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like a stout daily driver build for a fair amount of money without paying huge $$ for components that would only be needed for huge power levels.

Recommendations?
At the risk of sounding sarcastic, the best recommendation anyone can give you is that you'll need to do a bunch of reading here on these forums. You're not going to get enough comprehensive information by posting that question in the middle of this thread. (At least not enough to make an intelligent decision with a few thousand dollars.) The Power Bragging, and to a lesser extent, the Member's Journals forums should be good resources for you.

With that said, most GR owners end up doing some suspension upgrades along the way. You could do what I did which is get an STI, upgrade the suspension, have fun with it, and then upgrade the power once you know what you want. :tup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,626 Posts
Also we here on the web have no idea if those coming on here telling us about their blown motors are not lying though their teeth about abuse and other factors. What we need to do is analyze the facts and look more in depth into the problem, not jump to conclusions and mock others to discredit their theorys. If you disagree then conduct the research to provide proof for your claims.....
I won't discredit theories if they may be proven with evidence and aren't tagged to the mind of an arrogant pompous know it all. The theorization that another member brought here was unsupported, based off of the word of another, and had no validity to it and again had absolutely no proof that it was true. I will never be one to say something can't happen if I know that it can, but for some to say it can't happen because I'm just that brilliant and I don't need data to back it then I will discredit you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
I won't discredit theories if they may be proven with evidence and aren't tagged to the mind of an arrogant pompous know it all. The theorization that another member brought here was unsupported, based off of the word of another, and had no validity to it and again had absolutely no proof that it was true. I will never be one to say something can't happen if I know that it can, but for some to say it can't happen because I'm just that brilliant and I don't need data to back it then I will discredit you.
I am not pointing fingers at all.....

I just quoted your post to reference part of my opinion on engine failures.

The last part was a general statement to all.... As people have a tendency to get hostile very quickly on this board about trivial matters...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
At the risk of sounding sarcastic, the best recommendation anyone can give you is that you'll need to do a bunch of reading here on these forums. You're not going to get enough comprehensive information by posting that question in the middle of this thread. (At least not enough to make an intelligent decision with a few thousand dollars.) The Power Bragging, and to a lesser extent, the Member's Journals forums should be good resources for you.

With that said, most GR owners end up doing some suspension upgrades along the way. You could do what I did which is get an STI, upgrade the suspension, have fun with it, and then upgrade the power once you know what you want. :tup:
Thanks for your reply. I take no offence to your suggestion as I'll most definitely have countless hours of research to do on here. Just looking to be pointed in a good direction as far particularly good components for GR's and good engine builders/suppliers.

As for the suspension......it goes without saying that it will be upgraded substantially. I currently own a highly modded NA e46 M3 and wouldn't dream of setting up a 375 awhp car without the proper supporting mods.

Sorry for the thread jack.....I'll carry on with my research for the time being
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,174 Posts
I would like to add that the tune plays a far larger role in the longevity of a motor than many people realize.
I agree with this. For a while I asked people with dead motors if they had data logs showing how much knock their tune had, and pretty much everyone said no. People just trust their tuners. Someone wiser than me once said, "trust, but verify." :)

Knock is a leading cause of death for our motors, and with a good tune - verified to be good, via logging - you can almost eliminate it. If you don't log, you don't know much your motor is knocking, and you don't know how long it will last. And that goes for stock tunes too, as there's plenty of evidence that Subaru has put cars in showrooms with crap tunes.

There's no guarantees, because hit still shappens, but I think you can greatly improve the odds if you learn to make and read logs, or find someone to do it for you.

Built motors trade one set of risks for another - you get stronger parts, but you raise the probability of an early death for a thousand other reasons. There are enough threads about dead built motors that I'm not at all convinced that it's the best course until you get to 500whp or so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
I agree with this. For a while I asked people with dead motors if they had data logs showing how much knock their tune had, and pretty much everyone said no. People just trust their tuners. Someone wiser than me once said, "trust, but verify." :)

Knock is a leading cause of death for our motors, and with a good tune - verified to be good, via logging - you can almost eliminate it. If you don't log, you don't know much your motor is knocking, and you don't know how long it will last. And that goes for stock tunes too, as there's plenty of evidence that Subaru has put cars in showrooms with crap tunes.

There's no guarantees, because hit still shappens, but I think you can greatly improve the odds if you learn to make and read logs, or find someone to do it for you.

Built motors trade one set of risks for another - you get stronger parts, but you raise the probability of an early death for a thousand other reasons. There are enough threads about dead built motors that I'm not at all convinced that it's the best course until you get to 500whp or so.
Fully Agree with you.

I would like to also add though that the EJ257 is good till around 500 wheel torque before the bottom end needs replacing. It is rather possible that a stock motor would last a very long time under 400-450whp; if it has a tune with all most zero knock and timing that is not advanced to the moon and back.

One of the most disturbing things I have seen with shop tuned cars even on built motors is that the tuner will leave the cylinder #2 and #4 timing advance still in place from subaru. The per Cylinder timing advance is used by the stock ECU to detect knock earlier before it blows the who motor, since the knock sensor is located back middle of the block and closest to those two cylinders. Once you move past a stage one build even, I think it should be very imperative too look at those values and either tone them down or remove them altogether. One of the ways you can tell that the tables are being left alone is we are still seeing built and tuned motors with blown piston #2....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
One of the most disturbing things I have seen with shop tuned cars even on built motors is that the tuner will leave the cylinder #2 and #4 timing advance still in place from subaru. The per Cylinder timing advance is used by the stock ECU to detect knock earlier before it blows the who motor, since the knock sensor is located back middle of the block and closest to those two cylinders. Once you move past a stage one build even, I think it should be very imperative too look at those values and either tone them down or remove them altogether. One of the ways you can tell that the tables are being left alone is we are still seeing built and tuned motors with blown piston #2....
vermont, can you elaborate a little more on this? i am no tuner by any means, but am curious to know more about what you're describing, especially timing advance. shouldn't timing be accounted for on all banks when tuning? thanks in advance. :tup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
vermont, can you elaborate a little more on this? i am no tuner by any means, but am curious to know more about what you're describing, especially timing advance. shouldn't timing be accounted for on all banks when tuning? thanks in advance. :tup:
STI's have a separate table for Per Cylinder timing advance, on top of (base timing+avcs+FBKC+FLKC) times IAM= your timing. The per cylinder table then allows the tuner to add timing on top of that. On a stock rom you are looking at 1-2% at peek torque.... so not much. But just enough so that any problems will be for shadowed in those cylinders allowing the knock sensor to pick it up faster, or at least that is the idea. In reality what happens is pistons #2 and #4 tend to go faster. Maybe it is saving the whole engine from blowing but idk...

I am very very conservative when it comes to timing.... Until I add my meth kit I will keep it like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
STI's have a separate table for Per Cylinder timing advance, on top of (base timing+avcs+FBKC+FLKC) times IAM= your timing. The per cylinder table then allows the tuner to add timing on top of that. On a stock rom you are looking at 1-2% at peek torque.... so not much. But just enough so that any problems will be for shadowed in those cylinders allowing the knock sensor to pick it up faster, or at least that is the idea. In reality what happens is pistons #2 and #4 tend to go faster. Maybe it is saving the whole engine from blowing but idk...

I am very very conservative when it comes to timing.... Until I add my meth kit I will keep it like that.
I'm surprised that e85 conversions seem to outweigh those adding methanol or water injection to gain the desired lower intake temps, as well as safer motor operation. Meth injection would be one of my first upgrades on any car that I plan to do serious upgrades to.

It is especially popular in the RX-7 community. With all of the new injection kits, its becoming easier to add meth to most any car.

Anyways, just my $.02.:)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,398 Posts
E85 works as well or better and does not add any complexity. I've been running meth on my SHO for years in place of an intercooler.


I also have to agree with NSFW... I've yet to be impressed with a dyno tune and the short time they put into those tunes. We've got a guy here that started having all sorts of issues with his "tune" once the weather cooled off and he's asked me to take care of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
E85 works as well or better and does not add any complexity. I've been running meth on my SHO for years in place of an intercooler.


I also have to agree with NSFW... I've yet to be impressed with a dyno tune and the short time they put into those tunes. We've got a guy here that started having all sorts of issues with his "tune" once the weather cooled off and he's asked me to take care of it.
I wouldn't go that far as saying that dyno tuners are good. I have seen some very well tuned cars that have a lot of hours put into them on the dyno. I think it is more of a problem of a few poor tuners out their causing problems by cutting corners. There a few shops that I have tried to work with and seen comes come out from and decided not to use them. Thus the reason I tune own car now. Well that, and price.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,398 Posts
:confused:
I wouldn't go that far as saying that dyno tuners are good. I have seen some very well tuned cars that have a lot of hours put into them on the dyno. I think it is more of a problem of a few poor tuners out their causing problems by cutting corners. There a few shops that I have tried to work with and seen comes come out from and decided not to use them. Thus the reason I tune own car now. Well that, and price.

I said that I've yet to be impressed with the dyno tuning I have seen. Even a good tuner can't replicate what is seen on the street. Especially over a period of time and weather changes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,109 Posts
:confused:


I said that I've yet to be impressed with the dyno tuning I have seen. Even a good tuner can't replicate what is seen on the street. Especially over a period of time and weather changes.
Ops.... my bad... reading comprehension tends to elude me some days..... there a few very good tuners out there that do put in the time to really lock the tune down. Bt you right, in general most tuners do not take the time to properly dial in CL and partial throttle. Many are just concerned with a nice big peek horse power number.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
I am on an ATP 35r with EWG and FullRace manifold and all supporting mods for the last two years. The car puts down 380whp on the EFI dyno with stock engine internals. Love it ..its the tune..
 
81 - 100 of 290 Posts
Top