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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I took my 2017 STI to a local track this weekend, Thunderhill Raceway East 2 mile. It was mid-high 80s Saturday and my car was pretty much overheating on the track anytime I pushed it on the track, highest I seen was 240F coolant temp on my AP. My car is mostly stock except Cobb SF intake, Cobb Stage 1 OTS tune and Power Stop track day pads. Anyone else having overheating issues with their cars on the track? Really disappointed that this car can't handle a track day in stock trim, I'm also not that great of a driver either.
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Discussion Starter #4
:oops:
check the coolant cap for soot
The coolant was topped off the day before and nothing to note regarding anything out of the ordinary.

That's pretty common, duct the radiator and get an oil cooler. Oh and run with your heater on full blast 🥵
Just kind of disappointed that this car couldn't perform on the track in stock form and overheats. I didn't think to turn my heater on, maybe I could've got a few goods laps in. I was looking into ducting the radiator, venting the hood, oil cooler and possibly bigger radiator. I'd hate to do some mods and do another track day with the same results.
 

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My last new STI was a 2011 so I'm not sure if it's a good comparison, but I was around 360HP and ran Watkins Glen with no issues at all. I will say that an oil cooler is an absolute must for a tracked car. I'd also upgrade the radiator and move the horns or anything you can that's blocking the radiator. I put my oil cooler off to the side (so not in front of the radiator. Running the heat helps if you can stand it.
 

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In my experience, most stock cars can't handle a full lapping day in hot weather with a decent driver. And the ones that can usually are the ones without a lot of power. S2000, Civic, Miata, etc.

On my 05, upgrading the radiator and adding a radiator shroud was really all I had to do for a good while. Once I got faster and starting competing in time trials type events I added an oil cooler and brake ducting too. On the newer ones I think the shroud doesn't do as much, so maybe just start with the radiator and see how it does.
 

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In my experience, most stock cars can't handle a full lapping day in hot weather with a decent driver. And the ones that can usually are the ones without a lot of power. S2000, Civic, Miata, etc.

On my 05, upgrading the radiator and adding a radiator shroud was really all I had to do for a good while. Once I got faster and starting competing in time trials type events I added an oil cooler and brake ducting too. On the newer ones I think the shroud doesn't do as much, so maybe just start with the radiator and see how it does.
I think the first comment gets a 50% on Snopes. Even Corvettes and BMW's?
As to the second comment I would not hesitate for one millisecond to add an oil cooler! IT IS A CRITICAL, INTEGRAL PART OF ENGINE COOLING! More important than a new radiator and might mean a new radiator is not needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah, got my oil cooler/sandwich block in not to figure out where to put them. Will also work on the ducting from the bumper to the radiator. Did notice that the factory wind defelctors behind the bumper was misaligned and could be the culprit but with make some new ducting.
 

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What did you get? How can you get any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
 

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What did you get? How can you get any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
Lol, not sure what that means but I ended up piecing together my own oil cooler setup with an oil sandwich block as some of these kits were expensive and ended up getting an oil temp gauge as well. I haven't had much time since my wife's schedule doesn't line up with mine, mostly spending time with my 2.5 year old and 5 month old sons. I do need to get on this soon though and see how it goes.
 

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In my experience, most stock cars can't handle a full lapping day in hot weather with a decent driver. And the ones that can usually are the ones without a lot of power. S2000, Civic, Miata, etc.

On my 05, upgrading the radiator and adding a radiator shroud was really all I had to do for a good while. Once I got faster and starting competing in time trials type events I added an oil cooler and brake ducting too. On the newer ones I think the shroud doesn't do as much, so maybe just start with the radiator and see how it does.

Even in NA form on my S2000, I did add an oil cooler. On a hot day with 15-20 minutes on track, I'd still see 260F max. With adding boost, the entire design/plan was worked around cooling. The lower cooler in the V-mount that looks like my radiator, is actually my oil cooler on top of my radiator. My max temps from my last track day can be see on the graph below.








Oil temp isn't run into the ECU yet, but max was 235F, which it would peak can come back down to 230.

 

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Lol, not sure what that means but I ended up piecing together my own oil cooler setup with an oil sandwich block as some of these kits were expensive and ended up getting an oil temp gauge as well. I haven't had much time since my wife's schedule doesn't line up with mine, mostly spending time with my 2.5 year old and 5 month old sons. I do need to get on this soon though and see how it goes.
Based on the Pink Floyd song, Another Brick in the Wall.
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
Translation: if you don't share what you did (brand, size, etc.) how can we help, praise or criticize you?
 

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Even in NA form on my S2000, I did add an oil cooler. On a hot day with 15-20 minutes on track, I'd still see 260F max. With adding boost, the entire design/plan was worked around cooling. The lower cooler in the V-mount that looks like my radiator, is actually my oil cooler on top of my radiator. My max temps from my last track day can be see on the graph below.








Oil temp isn't run into the ECU yet, but max was 235F, which it would peak can come back down to 230.

Thanks! This emphasizes what I've said in another thread,
PSA So you have a >400whp fully built setup: Protecting Your Investment
There were crossover points where your max temperatures were met with max engine load! So, people can object and say they're not racing their car (and everyone can post all day long their anecdotal responses of, "I never had a problem") but there are always the perfect storms like a hot day, running the AC, on tired oil and a quart low and you get caught up in a race on the highway. Virtually this exact same scenario played out with me (but I had no AC) and after a couple of miles flat out I spun a rod bearing.
When BRZ's first came out they had a real problem with overheated oil.
 

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Thanks! This emphasizes what I've said in another thread,
PSA So you have a >400whp fully built setup: Protecting Your Investment
There were crossover points where your max temperatures were met with max engine load! So, people can object and say they're not racing their car (and everyone can post all day long their anecdotal responses of, "I never had a problem") but there are always the perfect storms like a hot day, running the AC, on tired oil and a quart low and you get caught up in a race on the highway. Virtually this exact same scenario played out with me (but I had no AC) and after a couple of miles flat out I spun a rod bearing.

I've already replied to that thread and I have not emphasized your stance in either. We are now talking about a track car, which is a different ball game than the street car(s) in that thread.

My log posted above is nearly all max engine load... It was a straightaway.

I've logged many cars over the years and oil temps on a street car generally do not require an oil cooler. I've logged street Subaru's up to 700whp that don't require and oil cooler. A proper oil selected for usage will go SIGNIFICANTLY further than fitting an oil cooler. If you're on "tired oil and a quart low", that's a different problem.

What data do you have to show exactly how your bearing spun? If you had good oil, you could have peaked to 300F and still be fine on a street pull.

When BRZ's first came out they had a real problem with overheated oil.
This is a moving target. Corvette's and BMW's run extremely hot oil and they don't seem to fail as much as a Subaru with lower power.
 

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I'm a bit tired of this technically subjective dance. Perhaps you know a lot more than I do. A lot of what we are discussing is subjective opinion and involves a ton of potential variables.
I happen to think your data suggests that I have a good case for adding an oil cooler since you added one (and not a Subaru) and you stopped having heat spikes during max loading. I think you can extrapolate lots of racing data and racing design and apply it to street cars and it helps with longevity.
You, yourself said that Subaru engines are in a class of their own, meaning weak design and weak parts. Owning and having owned BMW's (and many other performance cars) I agree.
I datalog on my 470 HP track car, but my oil info is visual from in-car video and observation, as I don't have my two oil pressure outputs connected to my Evo 4S.
I have a seven quart system if you exclude the Accusump. Volume helps. If you have a thermostatic valve then you can take advantage of the cooler and capacity IF you need it!

I did spin a bearing on my 2007 STI DD at WGI. A shitty mechanic that was "helping me" work on my race car broke my oil tube to the turbo at the last minute so I packed up my DD and trailered it to the Glen for three days of play. It lasted 2.5 days. It was my fault because of overheating (an unvented Impreza hood and excessive oil blowby) not enough gauges and my not monitoring the AP data. I was adding a bit of Torco, but obviously, it was not enough on the last day. Stupid, sophomoric behavior on my part because I was having so much fun passing expensive sports cars...
The spun bearing I alluded to happened in 1964 in my wheelie pulling, hopped-up VW. One of my first "hot rods". I was leaving a Corvair in my dust but it was a hot day in central Texas and I didn't have an oil cooler, beyond the pathetic stock one. This and my two old Porsches were my intro into boxer engines!
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I'm a bit tired of this technically subjective dance. Perhaps you know a lot more than I do. A lot of what we are discussing is subjective opinion and involves a ton of potential variables.
I happen to think your data suggests that I have a good case for adding an oil cooler since you added one (and not a Subaru) and you stopped having heat spikes during max loading. I think you can extrapolate lots of racing data and racing design and apply it to street cars and it helps with longevity.
You, yourself said that Subaru engines are in a class of their own, meaning weak design and weak parts. Owning and having owned BMW's (and many other performance cars) I agree.
I datalog on my 470 HP track car, but my oil info is visual from in-car video and observation, as I don't have my two oil pressure outputs connected to my Evo 4S.
I have a seven quart system if you exclude the Accusump. Volume helps. If you have a thermostatic valve then you can take advantage of the cooler and capacity IF you need it!
In the addition of adding an oil cooler to the S2000 initially, I also removed my heat exchanger. The temps I saw weren't spikes, it generally operated around 250 degrees, which was fine for the oil weight I used and the oil type I used. This was something I intentionally did and I followed with a good bit of oil sampling. Something you need to understand about thermostatic sandwiches is that they operate off of the path of least resistance. There is always an open path to the oil cooler to prevent shocking. If you have a good cooler setup, with little restriction, you'll have a really hard time getting oil up to temperature. I have a thermostat on my cooler and when I drove it on the street in Nebraska and Iowa during Ice Cream Cruise this year, temps stayed about 140F, despite the 180F thermostat. I ended up covering half of my cooler, which still was not enough.

When it was NA, I had a 200F thermostat and it still took some work to warm up the oil. If I were going to use this as a street car, I would absolutely go back to the stock heat exchanger as it will aid in warming the oil as well.



I am also around 7 quarts of oil in my system, with a baffled and trap door pan, as well as a Crawford AOS. I opted not to go with an Accusump as in the past on a different car on track, it didn't keep me from spinning a bearing and it just added more failure points.

I live in the mountains and take the S2000 out fairly often for some testing prior to going to the track. I cannot get my oil above 180F at a pretty high pace up twisty mountain roads, however, on track, I can peak around 235. That's with an added 4,000 ft of altitude, adding to the lack of cooling ability, compared to the local track (which is at 5,000 ft). I also took my >400whp STi up these roads often and the only thing I did for oil cooling was an 08+ heat exchanger. This was based off data from a buddy that used to work at 3R Racing, who also used to race for KPAX (Volvos and McLarens) and Flying Lizard... I think BMW as well. He's also got a 650whp S2000 known as the Big Bad Wolf and he's only running an OEM heat exchanger with some modified flow (I don't recall what he did).

You're right, I consider a Subaru motor pretty weak, but this is not where I think it's weak on the street, provided proper oil is selected for usage. I am huge on recommending oil coolers, when needed.


I did spin a bearing on my 2007 STI DD at WGI. A shitty mechanic that was "helping me" work on my race car broke my oil tube to the turbo at the last minute so I packed up my DD and trailered it to the Glen for three days of play. It lasted 2.5 days. It was my fault because of overheating (an unvented Impreza hood and excessive oil blowby) not enough gauges and my not monitoring the AP data. I was adding a bit of Torco, but obviously, it was not enough on the last day. Stupid, sophomoric behavior on my part because I was having so much fun passing expensive sports cars...
The spun bearing I alluded to happened in 1964 in my wheelie pulling, hopped-up VW. One of my first "hot rods". I was leaving a Corvair in my dust but it was a hot day in central Texas and I didn't have an oil cooler, beyond the pathetic stock one. This and my two old Porsches were my intro into boxer engines!
View attachment 61024
Where is the data that points to hot oil making the failure?

We run an 8 second, 1,000+whp Taurus and monitor oil temp and pressure and do not run a cooler (just a stock heat exchanger) and we can't get anything hot enough in a pass to remotely burn off moisture. Oil is always full of water and we are not spinning bearings.

 

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In the addition of adding an oil cooler to the S2000 initially, I also removed my heat exchanger. The temps I saw weren't spikes, it generally operated around 250 degrees, which was fine for the oil weight I used and the oil type I used. This was something I intentionally did and I followed with a good bit of oil sampling. Something you need to understand about thermostatic sandwiches is that they operate off of the path of least resistance. There is always an open path to the oil cooler to prevent shocking. If you have a good cooler setup, with little restriction, you'll have a really hard time getting oil up to temperature. I have a thermostat on my cooler and when I drove it on the street in Nebraska and Iowa during Ice Cream Cruise this year, temps stayed about 140F, despite the 180F thermostat. I ended up covering half of my cooler, which still was not enough.

When it was NA, I had a 200F thermostat and it still took some work to warm up the oil. If I were going to use this as a street car, I would absolutely go back to the stock heat exchanger as it will aid in warming the oil as well.



I am also around 7 quarts of oil in my system, with a baffled and trap door pan, as well as a Crawford AOS. I opted not to go with an Accusump as in the past on a different car on track, it didn't keep me from spinning a bearing and it just added more failure points.

I live in the mountains and take the S2000 out fairly often for some testing prior to going to the track. I cannot get my oil above 180F at a pretty high pace up twisty mountain roads, however, on track, I can peak around 235. That's with an added 4,000 ft of altitude, adding to the lack of cooling ability, compared to the local track (which is at 5,000 ft). I also took my >400whp STi up these roads often and the only thing I did for oil cooling was an 08+ heat exchanger. This was based off data from a buddy that used to work at 3R Racing, who also used to race for KPAX (Volvos and McLarens) and Flying Lizard... I think BMW as well. He's also got a 650whp S2000 known as the Big Bad Wolf and he's only running an OEM heat exchanger with some modified flow (I don't recall what he did).

You're right, I consider a Subaru motor pretty weak, but this is not where I think it's weak on the street, provided proper oil is selected for usage. I am huge on recommending oil coolers, when needed.




Where is the data that points to hot oil making the failure?

We run an 8 second, 1,000+whp Taurus and monitor oil temp and pressure and do not run a cooler (just a stock heat exchanger) and we can't get anything hot enough in a pass to remotely burn off moisture. Oil is always full of water and we are not spinning bearings.

I can't believe you want to introduce the extreme of drag racing into the equation of what most people do while street driving. Track or endurance racing is just taking street driving/highway driving to the extreme. You want it to last.
Drag racing is just who has the biggest balls for when it is gonna blow, which it will. I can't see the relevance at all. When I did championship autocross I took the belts off my engine and pushed it to the starting line. My run was around a minute. In that respect it was like drag racing.
 

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You want to
I can't believe you want to introduce the extreme of drag racing into the equation of what most people do while street driving.
I happen to think your data suggests that I have a good case for adding an oil cooler since you added one (and not a Subaru) and you stopped having heat spikes during max loading. I think you can extrapolate lots of racing data and racing design and apply it to street cars and it helps with longevity.
So now we can't extrapolate data?

Track or endurance racing is just taking street driving/highway driving to the extreme. You want it to last.
Maybe on the Autobahn, but they're very different in longevity requirments between the two, which is why you see posts like the original post pop up. I've shown that my track car on the street, did not operate at optimal temperatures on the street. Most people that build these cars for the street, just do a pull here and there... I've tuned a one or two of them and have a good idea what they're doing with them.

Drag racing is just who has the biggest balls for when it is gonna blow, which it will. I can't see the relevance at all. When I did championship autocross I took the belts off my engine and pushed it to the starting line. My run was around a minute. In that respect it was like drag racing.
I brought up this car due to the above and your introduction of you bug that was "leaving a Corvair", in which I would assume was a straight line race, no? I also provided an example of a much larger extreme where we don't need an oil cooler nor are we spinning bearings... And we use a stock block, crank, AND bearings. We also want some sort of longevity as motors like this consume a lot of money... We've been on the current motor for a couple years now.

I also brought up an AutoX/Road Course/One Lap of America car driven by someone at a professional level.

I am still interested in the data that points to oil being too hot, causing your bearing failure.
 

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How does a rear engine air cooled car relate to a water cooled front engine car one when discussing heating and cooling! Water cooling is a Ginormaous improvement .. .

Jeeze - Oh! They have an oil cooler in the fan housing if I can remember the last one I rebuilt - over 40 years ago. Not exactly apples to apples . . .
 

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How does a rear engine air cooled car relate to a water cooled front engine car one when discussing heating and cooling! Water cooling is a Ginormaous improvement .. .

Jeeze - Oh! They have an oil cooler in the fan housing if I can remember the last one I rebuilt - over 40 years ago. Not exactly apples to apples . . .
You misspelled "Ginormaous". It's spelled humongous.
I was just describing how, in two different cases (but both being boxer engines), that you can easily exceed what would normally be OK in a street driven car and kill it quickly. The red haze can quickly descend on a racer...
Heat can be your enemy in contributing to detonation. A cooler is one more way of having more oil circulating and another tool to ward off rod bearing failure. I spent the first 50 years of my life in Texas where heat and the added stress of AC can kill a high-strung engine. There, I'd never drive like I do and be without an oil cooler.
 
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