stiffer front sway = more understeer
lighter front sway = less understeer

that seems to be the exact opposite of what the sti suspension and handling gurus are preaching.

why else would a bigger front swaybar be such a great handling mod ?

if what you're saying is true, we should be getting <19mm front sways.


J.

 

that seems to be the exact opposite of what the sti suspension and handling gurus are preaching.

why else would a bigger front swaybar be such a great handling mod ?

if what you're saying is true, we should be getting <19mm front sways.

J.

Hard to say. I am brand new to the STI, but these are general rules on how anti-sway bars work, and I have never heard of these rules flipping 180 degress for ANY car. The only thing I can predict, is that a large front sway bar, by itself, will on it's own reduce body roll giving the sensation of better traction. My guess is, if that if somebody is having understeer problems were to increase the front stiffness a little, but increase the rear by a larger %, than the understeer would be neutralised (at least by some).

 

that seems to be the exact opposite of what the sti suspension and handling gurus are preaching.

why else would a bigger front swaybar be such a great handling mod ?

if what you're saying is true, we should be getting <19mm front sways.


J.

Exactly my point. And whether its logical or not it works. If I put my stock FSB back on I am gonna be more prone to understeer because (due to body roll) I cant keep a decent contact patch on the front tires. This has been widely debated, ask any of the real gurus (of which I am not). Stretch, Mykl, TiC, RCE, Whiteline, the list goes on.

 

Yeah its a trade off man....Added weight transfer to the tire but also increased contact patch. Most agree the advantage offered by increasing your contact patch over comes the the added weight loaded onto the tire. There is a theory that understeer may also be attributed to an abrubt change in front spring rates when you hi tthe bump stop. If a sway bar works the way it should it will help combat thos issue too.

But the point is you need to get some freakn negative camber up there and sustain it around the corner period. Its hard to do in the STi. I know my favorite mod is chewy granola bars but my second favorite is negative camber:tup:

 

quoting Clint (TiC)
read his whole article in one of the stickies on top of this forum.

Front sway bar – why bigger is better
Our cars are set up with a McPherson setup up front. Like all suspension systems on cars they have their plusses and minuses. Some of the plusses for the McP setup are weight, and simplicity. The big con, that concerns us and front sways address, is poor dynamic camber curve.

See, what happens is this – when you compress the outside front corner (the one that’s loaded when in a turn) the suspension compresses as it should. When it compresses the dynamic camber curve causes the wheel to roll more toward positive camber. Push more and the more it rolls toward positive. This is bad because you start to loose grip as the inside edge of the tire gets “light.” Ideally you want the full contact patch evenly on the ground (or close to evenly) to maximize grip. This is the reason that folks try to run a decent amount of static negative camber. In other words, if you start with negative camber when it rolls over toward positive camber you have enough of a camber “budget” to allow for more contact patch on the ground.

So, where do bigger front bars come into play? Well, the front bar acts as a spring (torsion spring in this case) to help hold the static camber curve as you compress the front suspension. As you compress the loaded corner the bigger bar will resist that camber roll over to positive on the loaded corner. This is why bigger is better.

Ok, so what size should I use? Well, it really depends upon what you want to do. My thoughts are this – HUGE bars (i.e. The strano 32mm bar or the whiteline 27-29mm bar) make for every quick turn in, but darty handling. The moderately huge bars (i.e. Whiteline 24-26mm bar) make for very good turn in, but not so darty so things are smoother, more predictable and more controllable.

Hey, that’s great Clint, but still what bar should I get? These have been my suggestions to folks:

For autocross or somewhere where you want stupidly quick turning that is a bit darty then I suggest the HUGE bars.
For something like canyon driving or street only use (or track work with nothing but nice sweeping turns) I suggest something like the 24-26mm adjustable bar.

J.

 

Hard to say. I am brand new to the STI, but these are general rules on how anti-sway bars work, and I have never heard of these rules flipping 180 degress for ANY car. The only thing I can predict, is that a large front sway bar, by itself, will on it's own reduce body roll giving the sensation of better traction. My guess is, if that if somebody is having understeer problems were to increase the front stiffness a little, but increase the rear by a larger %, than the understeer would be neutralised (at least by some).

The trend here is to increase the front as much as possible, while keeping the rear at around 24mm. This makes sense considering the BEST camber you can get out of a stock STi in the front is around -1. Some people have trouble getting -.5 in the front, while the rear is always around -1.5.

 

Yeah its a trade off man....Added weight transfer to the tire but also increased contact patch. Most agree the advantage offered by increasing your contact patch over comes the the added weight loaded onto the tire. There is a theory that understeer may also be attributed to an abrubt change in front spring rates when you hi tthe bump stop. If a sway bar works the way it should it will help combat thos issue too.

But the point is you need to get some freakn negative camber up there and sustain it around the corner period. Its hard to do in the STi. I know my favorite mod is chewy granola bars but my second favorite is negative camber:tup:

Has anyone tested that?

 

The trend here is to increase the front as much as possible, while keeping the rear at around 24mm. This makes sense considering the BEST camber you can get out of a stock STi in the front is around -1. Some people have trouble getting -.5 in the front, while the rear is always around -1.5.

Ok, yes, that makes total sense if that is an issue that the car's natural geomatry has (I am not yet familiar with STI suspension quirks). But I think it is best to not confuse why and how the anti-sway bars are doing what they are doing. In the cases you are providing here, a much stiffer front sway bar is reducing body roll in general, which is keeping the front suspension from compressing as far, which is keeping the car from rolling to a posative camber. You will feel this affect most if braking into a corner. My guess a larger than stock rear anti-sway bar will have the same affect on negative camber when neutral or accelerating through a corner.

My point is, increase anti-sway throuought the car to minimise body roll and camber change, increasing tire patch in a turn. But once there, if you need to dial up or down understeer or oversteer, you have to know how the sway bar on either end of the car will affect it.

So what I have read on the sticky (in short) is "Use larger front sway bar to decrease understeer", which to me, isn't right. It should be "Use larger front sway to reduce body roll, which will keep more contact patch on the outside corner". Once you have adequately reduced body roll (and therefor camber roll), if you want even LESS understeer... you wouldn't go with an even LARGER front sway, you would go with a larger rear sway to reduce traction at the rear (gives the feeling of better traction at the front)

I think we are all saying the same thing, I just think it is the "why" that is incorrect.

 

Ok, yes, that makes total sense if that is an issue that the car's natural geomatry has (I am not yet familiar with STI suspension quirks). But I think it is best to not confuse why and how the anti-sway bars are doing what they are doing. In the cases you are providing here, a much stiffer front sway bar is reducing body roll in general, which is keeping the front suspension from compressing as far, which is keeping the car from rolling to a posative camber. You will feel this affect most if braking into a corner. My guess a larger than stock rear anti-sway bar will have the same affect on negative camber when neutral or accelerating through a corner.

My point is, increase anti-sway throuought the car to minimise body roll and camber change, increasing tire patch in a turn. But once there, if you need to dial up or down understeer or oversteer, you have to know how the sway bar on either end of the car will affect it.

So what I have read on the sticky (in short) is "Use larger front sway bar to decrease understeer", which to me, isn't right. It should be "Use larger front sway to reduce body roll, which will keep more contact patch on the outside corner". Once you have adequately reduced body roll (and therefor camber roll), if you want even LESS understeer... you wouldn't go with an even LARGER front sway, you would go with a larger rear sway to reduce traction at the rear (gives the feeling of better traction at the front)

I think we are all saying the same thing, I just think it is the "why" that is incorrect.

Sounds accurate to me.

 

So what will front and rear 22mm sway bars feel like on a daily driver?