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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone know where to get 5-point seat belts?

This has been my dream since I was like 12, and I got to sit in the cockpit of an f-18. Those 5-pointers make you feel invincible.... hehe.


Is this even a possibility without putting in new seats?
 

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5-pointers...that's pretty hardcore. A 4 point would probably give you what you are looking for without the added expense.

Search for Schrothe or Sparco harness......I know burkart-distributors.com (the member) has a Sparco 4 point in his...and I believe JJ was going for a Schrothe 4 point.
 

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bitabur said:
Anyone know where to get 5-point seat belts?

This has been my dream since I was like 12, and I got to sit in the cockpit of an f-18. Those 5-pointers make you feel invincible.... hehe.


Is this even a possibility without putting in new seats?
I wouldn't use anything except a 3 point without a cage man. Not to piss on your dream or anything, but it isn't worth the risk.

-st
 

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bitabur said:
Is this even a possibility without putting in new seats?
sure it's possible. have seen it in neons. :) four points attach in the usual places (see JJ's harness install). the fifth (the one between your legs)...hmm. you may have to drill a new hole. eh, just go for a 6-point and attach the two betwee-leg points to the front seat bolts.
 

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Singletrack said:
...it isn't worth the risk.
what's the risk? i was recently speaking with someone about this. they said that if the car rolled, the harness would keep you upright, increasing the chances your head gets crushed. i responded that schroth has a DOT-approved 4pt harness that does not have an inertial reel. the guy just said "oh".
 

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I agree with Singletrack. In the case of a roll-over, a 3-point is safer becasue it allows you to still roll to the side to avoid the roof as it crushes in towards your head. :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I was under the impression they they were pretty crush-proof already....

Someone posted about rolling his WRX like 6 times with no crushing at all......
 

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4MLA1FN said:
Singletrack said:
...it isn't worth the risk.
what's the risk? i was recently speaking with someone about this. they said that if the car rolled, the harness would keep you upright, increasing the chances your head gets crushed. i responded that schroth has a DOT-approved 4pt harness that does not have an inertial reel. the guy just said "oh".
The risk is you break your head and/or neck. I do see that the harnasses are DOT approved (per their web page), although I still don't understand how you would avoid a roof cave-in with them, regardless of whether they have inertial reel or not. Can you explain?

Thanks,

-st
 

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Singletrack said:
...I still don't understand how you would avoid a roof cave-in with them, regardless of whether they have inertial reel or not. Can you explain?
hey, i'm confused also. if it has an inertial reel, then it's no different than our lap belt. so it's the non-inertial reel version that leaves me nonplussed. how can it be DOT approved if roof cave-in is *truly* the concern?

thinking outside the box, i'm left to conclude that roof cave-in may not be the issue. and if you think about a rolling car, the g-forces are going to make you sit upright in your seat so you head is gonna get crushed like a ripe cantalope anyway.

continuing, i can't help but wonder if "DOT-approval" is a rubber stamp for SFI- and FIA- approved harness, but few companies want the liability. perhaps i should ask a cop. however, their only criteria may be "if it ain't DOT approved, it's illegal".

btw, i went through this reasonsing with someone at a car show and they blew me off like i was an idiot. nevermind the fact they didn't have an answer.
 

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COLORADO!!

4MLA1FN said:
hey, i'm confused also. if it has an inertial reel, then it's no different than our lap belt. so it's the non-inertial reel version that leaves me nonplussed. how can it be DOT approved if roof cave-in is *truly* the concern?

thinking outside the box, i'm left to conclude that roof cave-in may not be the issue. and if you think about a rolling car, the g-forces are going to make you sit upright in your seat so you head is gonna get crushed like a ripe cantalope anyway.

continuing, i can't help but wonder if "DOT-approval" is a rubber stamp for SFI- and FIA- approved harness, but few companies want the liability. perhaps i should ask a cop. however, their only criteria may be "if it ain't DOT approved, it's illegal".

btw, i went through this reasonsing with someone at a car show and they blew me off like i was an idiot. nevermind the fact they didn't have an answer.
Well the g forces might make you sit upright, but the force from the roof caving in actually pushes you to the right side of the car with a 3 point. So I don't agree with you there.

But I tend to agree that the "DOT approved" stamp might be something as generic as being able to mount the harness without removing the 3 point : ) I'm not saying that's it, but it could be something that loophole-ish (cool new word).

I guess all I would say is that if any harness, DOT approved or not, does not allow you to kiss the center console, then you could easily be killed in a rollover that might otherwise only have severely injured you : )

-st
 

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Anyone Put Component Speakers in the Rear?

As someone that has a 6 point Simpson harness I have to chime in. A 6 point is much easier to mount in the STi using longer front seat mounting bolts and a pair spacers. (Same way I mounted a Halon fire extinguisher in the passenger foot well.) 4MLA1FN is correct. You would have to drill a hole in the floor pan to mount a 5th point. It's not worth the $3 dollars in hardware.

The stock belts have pretensoners that suck you back when the sensors detect an accident happening. Inertia reels keep you from moving too fast, but these things real you in. You can lean over and open the glove box at speed and pull your wallet out at the drive through. A fixed harness is just that. You don't move. They do negate the "advantage" that the EVO has with it's better Recaro seats.

As for rollover: The roof has to cave and it has to cave in your favor. Left vs right. one way and you lose your head... Go back to the old SCCA rules and if you have a convertible you can only have a lap belt. I'll take my chances with both sholders secured. Better if you center punch something solid.

One safety thought that no one has mentioned is spinal compression. I've thought about it quite a bit. My old car had a bar at shoulder height that eliminated this worry. For my STi I used the seat squab child seat points to anchor the shoulder belts. I am now trusting that the STi seat backs will not collapse in a BAD frontal collision. If the seats do, the force vector will crush verabre.

I'm still using the 4 point cam lock on a daily basis....
 

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2003 Tour De Cours, Petter wins !

I've done research on this before and have read that a 5 point is safer because a four point can ride high up your stomach during a crash and cause internal damage to you. The submarine strap keeps the waist belt low around your hips where your body can withstand the impact. I'm a Naval Aviator and almost every aircraft I've been in had a 5 point setup. Only a Bell jetranger had the 4 point, but they usually crash straight down anyway.

Also, the shoulder straps should be mounted to a point behind the seat where the angle to the mount doesn't exceed 45 degrees. This means the shoulder straps should be mounted to a bar running across the back of the seats and not down on the floor behind them.

Here's a link to a vendor that has the bar I'm talking about.

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/04STI/Interior/seats.htm

If I go to 5 points in the future, I would use a bar like this and also leave the factory belts in for daily driving. The 5 points would be used for dragstrip and autocrossing.
 

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Singletrack said:
Well the g forces might make you sit upright, but the force from the roof caving in actually pushes you to the right side of the car with a 3 point.
so you're saying that an impact strong and sudden enough to cave in a roof is gentle enough to not collapse the smaller mass of your head or neck but will move the much greater mass of your whole torso to the right? what if the roof is caved in from the right? or from straight above? to me, the physics and the odds suggest otherwise.

Singletrack said:
...loophole-ish (cool new word).
:)

Singletrack said:
...you could easily be killed in a rollover that might otherwise only have severely injured you : )
:D that cracks me up and brings to mind morbid guy jokes that i won't recreate here.
 

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Web_Foot_STi said:
As someone that has a 6 point Simpson harness...
cool. please post a pics if you have 'em.

Web_Foot_STi said:
One safety thought that no one has mentioned is spinal compression.
ugh, yeah, hadn't thought of that. but like you suggest, it depends where you mount the two top points, i guess.

Web_Foot_STi said:
I used the seat squab child seat points to anchor the shoulder belts.
you mean those little hooks for the child seat!? i'd considered those but man, they look really flimsy to me. i mean, they no doubt could handle the mass of a 40# child and 10# carseat. but my torso and head mass is significantly greater; easily double.

Web_Foot_STi said:
I am now trusting that the STi seat backs will not collapse in a BAD frontal collision. If the seats do, the force vector will crush verabre.
hmm. that's a good point. are those harness bars easily removable i.e. they're not welded in place. can i bolt it in for raceday, then remove it when my kids are in the back?

Web_Foot_STi said:
I'm still using the 4 point cam lock on a daily basis....
which one? (likely not the DOT-approved schroth ralleye 4 since you said it's a cam lock.)
 

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zimm said:
I've done research on this before and have read that a 5 point is safer because ... The submarine strap keeps the waist belt low around your hips where your body can withstand the impact.
schroth have a 4pt with anti-submarine. it's kinda neat...i think? one of the shoulder straps will stretch in an impact, causing the torso to twist slightly, defeating the tendency to submarine.

zimm said:
I'm a Naval Aviator...
you rock! :)

zimm said:
IThis means the shoulder straps should be mounted to a bar running across the back of the seats and not down on the floor behind them.
yep. without a bar, you'd have to mount 'em on the lapbelt points for the rear seat, which will hopefully be less than 45degrees.
 

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zimm said:
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/04STI/Interior/seats.htm
i dunno how they can say the bar doesn't "adversely affecting the car's 'people mover' capabilities." the people in the back seat have a bar about 12" from their face. who'd sit back there???
 

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Sorry no pics, but they would be very boring if I had them. Just some 3" wide webbing draped over the seat.

The lower child mounts do look wimpier than I would like, but a quick calculation shows that they are OK. Using the upper mounts put the harness at odd angles sideways and they were below the rear seat back. That under heavy load makes the shoulder harness very loose. (When you dig in they are just a wimpy too...)

I bought my 6 point to keep my back side firmly in the seat while hillclimbing. At the line I have the belts as snug as I can pull the adjusters, and then ratchet up the seat height adjuster a few times.

The harness bar I have seen on a competitors STi was bolt in. (It was still a little low.) It did look easier to R & R than the bolt in roll bar in my old BMW.

Finally, just because you have a 5, or 6 point harness doesn't mean that you have to use all of the points. I have installed a Simpson harness, and also own a Simpson Voyager...
 

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4MLA1FN said:
Singletrack said:
Well the g forces might make you sit upright, but the force from the roof caving in actually pushes you to the right side of the car with a 3 point.
so you're saying that an impact strong and sudden enough to cave in a roof is gentle enough to not collapse the smaller mass of your head or neck but will move the much greater mass of your whole torso to the right? what if the roof is caved in from the right? or from straight above? to me, the physics and the odds suggest otherwise.

Singletrack said:
...loophole-ish (cool new word).
:)

Singletrack said:
...you could easily be killed in a rollover that might otherwise only have severely injured you : )
:D that cracks me up and brings to mind morbid guy jokes that i won't recreate here.
This isn't some half-cocked idea I came up with; it's based on hearing the same thing over and over again from people that are more knowledgeable than myself about chassis dynamics, safety, road car racing, etc. etc.

Bottom line is that you have a hell of a lot better chance of living through a roof cave-in with a 3 point vs. a 4+ point harness. One will allow you certain movement when being crushed by the force of the roof, and one will hold you there while you are compacted into FUBAR : )

-st
 

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Singletrack said:
...you have a hell of a lot better chance of living through a roof cave-in with a 3 point vs. a 4+ point harness.
i do appreciate your points and do see that there could be some benefits in the 3pt in a cave-in. however, this takes us back to the top fo the thread: how come schroth has a dot-approved 4pt non-inertial harness? anyway, i'm motivated to find out. i'll add to this thread if i learn anything.
 
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