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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi,

Love the car and wanted to do the following modifications to make the car "safer" in terms of engine longevity:

1. Get a Dom Tune coolant mod
2. High end oil pickup, windage tray, and oil pan (Killer B or IAG)
3. AOS (am torn on the exact one to use...like the Crawford v3 for simplicity or the Killer B..realize they don't have coolant.....not sure, versus IAG street..all would keep the PCV system). So no-tune-needed AOS's.

Have a Subaru warranty for 7y/100k on the 2019.

My way of thinking is that if it breaks, fine - Subaru will cover it and worst case, I get a new engine installed for free. That is what everyone says to do - do nothing (no mods) and see if it breaks or not. Just enjoy it.


But, and here it comes, not all damage causes a failure. I believe that these systems/parts wear over time and excessive heat, etc., detonations, etc., cause damage. Thus, if I leave the car unprotected for 7 years, seemingly without an issue, I may be doing a lot of "subclinical" damage to the engine just via normal use that could be avoided with the above modifications.

So, I can handle the parts and the installation - the real question is what will Subaru really do to a car that comes in under a warranty claim with the above mods? My dealer is very cool...but these issues go above the dealer these days.

Does anyone have any experience in this regard? Actually stock car with say an AOS or a GADT coolant mod....the oil pickup is likely ok but the pan and windage tray too? (the oil pickup is such a pain to install that it makes sense to me to just do the pan and windage tray too.....).



Thanks all in advance. I searched...but most mod with an ecu tune and void the warranty in that...I'd be keeping the 2019 tune stock until the end of the warranty (at least that is the plan....it is very tempting to do it before the laws make it impossible to do it.....that is another thread someday ...).



First world problem for sure.

Again, thank you in advance.

So: does anyone know of SOA will void a warranty for the above on the engine? Opinions welcome, but I'd love to hear first hand data. Is it just not worth it. And, the plan would be to eventually add power. And I do drive "hard" from time to time (like HPDE's with the PCA, etc.).
 

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If you have 7yrs/100K miles warranty and do not plan on tuning the car until after the warranty, why are you doing these presumed "safety mods"? Without opening a few cans of worms here on their true effectiveness, most would agree that they are more relevant if you are tuned. In other words, you already have the only safety mod you need, your 7yrs/100K miles extended warranty. Don't let internet forums turn you into a paranoid schizophrenia, just enjoy your STI.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi,

Well analyzed....yes, the forums have an effect.

And, thank you. You have a good point.

Hear me out - the issue is things wear. The warranty is great - but say I have been using the car as intended by STI and then at 104k a spin a bearing....SOA might be nice or might not be. I'd prefer to have a car that has been well taken care of......I see the issues like heat and oil starvation if not really bad enough to break an engine may contribute to a later failure..when I am on the hook.

Anyway, I do enjoy it, but I also like to "optimize" my cars for reliability. And who knows, one day I may tune her....and I'd like to be optimized for such in advance to soften the cost.
 

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Always a tough dilemma... It really comes down to your level of comfort with the dealer turning away warranty coverage. If you got an extended warranty, you're likely not cool with dishing out +$6K to replace an engine should it fail after the above parts are installed.

That being said, the above parts should only enhance longevity, BUT... that is no guarantee you won't have a failure, and the dealer won't see it differently than you.

As for each part, the pickup is tough to argue. We have the most popular and most installed pickup on the market. Never had a failure of any kind, some of our dealers are dealerships, and they have installed on cars still under. Factually, our pickup flows oil better than OEM, and is MUCH stronger. Our high flow version is THE most free flowing pickup on the market, but I don't think that's the product for this application. I'd stay away from a baffle/pan for warrantly retention.

As for the AOS, ours is definitely the best choice (no bias at all ;) It's the easiest to install, but it does remove the PCV valve. Even though there is not tune change requirement, removing that emissions device can be seen as a big no-no to dealers. Usually because they are just not familiar with the functionality of those products.

Same holds true to the GADT coolant mod. It changes the coolant loop and can be argued that 'this is not hos Subaru intended for the engine to operate'.

Again, your comfort level with paying out of pocket, should the worst occur is what the question is here. Whenever we acquire a new car for product development, these are the 3 mods we do immediately, literally. We have them installed before break-in is complete, typically with pan/baffle and headers too; the 'safety' mods. These cars also live a hard life and we do not expect warranty support.

If you have any follow-up questions on our products, I'm the guy who designed them, so don't hesitate to ask :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Dear KB,

Thank you.

Two quick questions:

1. How long with the flaps last in the super G pan? I ask because I like the inner tube feature ...sort of wich you could have this feature on your other pans....I can see doing things like Pocono again in a HPDE event...banked long turn.....and on ramps/offramps....the car is amazing in turns. My goal would be to put the best sump on and leave it alone....years and years of being on the car would be the goal. As is it carries over 1G now on wider a/s tires....it is really amazing how well it handles on ohlins and supporting suspension.
2. Does adding an elh need a tune? My local shop has told me that an elh on a 2019 would require more fuel, and hence a tune.



Thank you again.

jcb
 

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Hi,

Well analyzed....yes, the forums have an effect.

And, thank you. You have a good point.

Hear me out - the issue is things wear. The warranty is great - but say I have been using the car as intended by STI and then at 104k a spin a bearing....SOA might be nice or might not be. I'd prefer to have a car that has been well taken care of......I see the issues like heat and oil starvation if not really bad enough to break an engine may contribute to a later failure..when I am on the hook.

Anyway, I do enjoy it, but I also like to "optimize" my cars for reliability. And who knows, one day I may tune her....and I'd like to be optimized for such in advance to soften the cost.
While today's average car should easily last over 100K but that is still a lot of miles, especially on a performance oriented car. Even as you are taking care of the car as you are suppose to, there will be 100K worth of wear and tear on the car regardless. IMO, reliability past 100K miles still can come down to luck, even if we are talking about a Toyota/Lexus. And to add, all the "safety mods" you listed there, are all significant enough for SoA and the dealership to deny any warranty coverage and rightfully so.

I think what you need to do is to be honest with yourself, it is that you are leaning toward getting the STI tuned. You are simply looking for reasons to justify doing it. Again, all those mods are not necessary for a stock STI. With no disrespect, I am not going to sugar coated for you, your excuse of "preemptive mods" is really just an excuse. Worrying about what is going to happen to your car after 100K miles is exactly the same as worrying about the sky is falling.

I don't know how old you are or how long have you been a car enthusiast. #1 rule of car modification, especially power modification is: Pay to play. You have an extended warranty, rest easy and just enjoy the car.

Best of luck to you and happy motoring.
 

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I expect my STI (and any other car I buy new) to last 200K before it becomes uneconomical, and if I like the car I may keep it longer. In fact except for the 05 STI (which I still have with 260K+mi on it) I haven't owned a car that I didn't drive well past 200K since sometime back in the early 90s, and only one of them was purchased new. The 05 STI was rebuilt at 184Kmi - I believe I could have babied it to 200K if had have been inclined to drive it into the ground instead of building it as soon as it showed signs of significant impending "serivce".

If the OP weren't tracking the car it would be a no brainer to me to leave it stock. My 2020 will remain stock until it is out of warranty - but its already got 22K. Also it will never see a track.

Paying for the extended warranty has created a dilemma with tracking in the equation.
 
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Dear KB,

Thank you.

Two quick questions:

1. How long with the flaps last in the super G pan? I ask because I like the inner tube feature ...sort of wich you could have this feature on your other pans....I can see doing things like Pocono again in a HPDE event...banked long turn.....and on ramps/offramps....the car is amazing in turns. My goal would be to put the best sump on and leave it alone....years and years of being on the car would be the goal. As is it carries over 1G now on wider a/s tires....it is really amazing how well it handles on ohlins and supporting suspension.
2. Does adding an elh need a tune? My local shop has told me that an elh on a 2019 would require more fuel, and hence a tune.



Thank you again.

jcb
No problem!

1. The flaps should be good for at least 5 years. We use Mountune flaps currently, but are about to swap to our own version. They will last longer. 5 Years is a good time to inspect them, but in all honestly, they will likely be good for well beyond that. I know the new material will be for sure. If you're at 1G sustained now, you're getting close to the limits of the OEM pan, so be careful. Oil pressure and temp gauges are must haves. If you're not going to go slicks, cage, etc... I would not recommend our Super-G pan, it's overkill and money that doesn't need to be spent. Our traditional performance oil pan will be good to 1.6Gs sustained all day long.

2. For 'normal' driving no. For Heavy or WOT, yes. So the short answer is yes. For best power AND reliability a ProTune is the way to go. Make sure you get a track map too!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Thanks all.

1. I am not a kid any longer.....in terms of age.
2. Tifosi is right..I sort of want to tune the car...subconsciously...and I know the phrase. Had a blueprinted engine in a prior car. The issue is the darn warranty. Mheyman is right on.
3. I also think the Killer B products are "artwork" if you will and I very much want to add them to my car...the OG tank, the high flow tube, the AOS, and the amazing ELH....and their supporting parts. I suppose that is sort of silly but one only lives once and I'd rather put them on now than wait 4 more years....

Thank you all. Much to think about.


jb
 

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Tifosi posted exactly what I would have said. Now having said that, you can't risk manage everything! As someone that has lived through life altering ebbs and flows both physically and financially, if you have the means (don't need to borrow to make it a reality) I would absolutely mod the car to your liking and just roll the dice with the warranty. I wouldn't give this advice to just anybody, but you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders. Personal enjoyment is far too often sacrificed by tripping yourself up with the what ifs in life. You have an added cushion in owning a 2019 with the RA short block.
 

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Thanks all.

1. I am not a kid any longer.....in terms of age.
2. Tifosi is right..I sort of want to tune the car...subconsciously...and I know the phrase. Had a blueprinted engine in a prior car. The issue is the darn warranty. Mheyman is right on.
3. I also think the Killer B products are "artwork" if you will and I very much want to add them to my car...the OG tank, the high flow tube, the AOS, and the amazing ELH....and their supporting parts. I suppose that is sort of silly but one only lives once and I'd rather put them on now than wait 4 more years....

Thank you all. Much to think about.


jb
So we have come full circle. We have all been there or will be there in the future. Extended warranty are for people who wants to keep the car stock, not for people that are looking to tune the car. If you are in a financial position to do so and wants to, go for it. Like you said, you only live once. Contact your dealership and see about cancelling the warranty. After that, drive on and don't look back. ✊
 

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Your warranty is paid for at this point. If you do not potentially want to get stuck with denied warranty claim leave it alone. No one can look into crystal ball on what happens after your warranty period is up. Take the next 4-5 years and save up a nice fund for mods/repairs. Imo, if you do not have enough cash to stroke check for new engine (worst case) now or later do not mod it. jmo…
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
If you're at 1G sustained now, you're getting close to the limits of the OEM pan, so be careful. Oil pressure and temp gauges are must haves. If you're not going to go slicks, cage, etc...
What is the limit of the OEM pan (2019 vintage pan in case they made upgrades)?


And, I've decided to go with a Killer B pickup - save a 30 dollar higher cost, is there any reason NOT to get the high flow unit for my car...leaving the other parts stock until off warranty and then perhaps updating things with a pan/windage tray (maybe sooner, who knows). I like the idea of better flow and perhaps cooler cylinder 4 as a result (in theory at least...). Maybe....


Thank you again.

jb
 

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I've got the pickup and windage tray with a fresh/new oem pan on my 12'.
I daily my car so i didn't need the extra capacity, and the KB pan takes you up to 5.5 quarts of oil, so you need a second bottle of oil when doing an oil change.
I decided to stay with the OEM pan since I don't need the performance, only the safety part, and I want to keep my service cheaper since I'm using good oil and changing it often.
I drive my car sort of hard on the back roads occasionally, but no hard track days, so not really needed.

I also have the IAG street AOS. I like the design and the fact that it's heated (coolant), and they even just came out with a new version with some improvements to the routing of the coolant piping. I know the Cobb is just a rebranded IAG, so there's that too. If you live where it gets below freezing (or nearly), I would absolutely get a heated AOS. Sludge is a real thing.

I can agree with the cyl 4 mod, although I didn't do it cause I switched to ELH, so not as big of a problem now for me with the EGT's.

I would really ask yourself how long you intend on keeping the car and how far you want to go with it. If your answer is 'indefinitely, as far as I can tell', then these mods make perfect sense for the sake of longevity on a car you plan on holding onto, even if you'll keep it pretty well stock for now. If your answer is 'eh, I might sell it in 3-4 years' it might not be worth the investment unless you start putting together plans to give it more power.

In terms of the warranty, depends what goes wrong. it can sometimes be hard to get the dealer to take responsibility for things unless it is clearly the result of a defective part or improper dealer service. I don't know about Subaru but some brands will try to find any reason not to cover it - 'oil level was probably low', the dealer didn't service it last, you were driving too hard, you revved it too high, blah blah blah.
The way I look at it (and the good old ringland scare too) is, if the engine grenades itself, it's fate that I throw in a shortblock and turn up the boost :D
 

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I've got the pickup and windage tray with a fresh/new oem pan on my 12'.
I daily my car so i didn't need the extra capacity, and the KB pan takes you up to 5.5 quarts of oil, so you need a second bottle of oil when doing an oil change.
I decided to stay with the OEM pan since I don't need the performance, only the safety part, and I want to keep my service cheaper since I'm using good oil and changing it often.
I drive my car sort of hard on the back roads occasionally, but no hard track days, so not really needed.
Just to clarify, our pan holds 6 quarts :)

We do sell to 'street' people fairly often even though I don't recommend it as 'necessary'. One of the benefits you pointed out is cheaper oil changes on the stock pan. While that is true, the flip side of more oil is OCIs can be pushed out; especially important if you're running E85. This is mostly the commuter crowd trying to buy some time and convenience. When going this route it's HIGLY recommended you're very in touch with you're engine/oil relationship via UOAs through someone like Blackstone Labs. We've gone as far as pushing a tuned FA20 to 11K miles during some oil testing (with surprisingly good results), on a shop car/engine that had +150K miles, but we had EVERY oil change analysis since owning the car new.

What is the limit of the OEM pan (2019 vintage pan in case they made upgrades)?

And, I've decided to go with a Killer B pickup - save a 30 dollar higher cost, is there any reason NOT to get the high flow unit for my car...leaving the other parts stock until off warranty and then perhaps updating things with a pan/windage tray (maybe sooner, who knows). I like the idea of better flow and perhaps cooler cylinder 4 as a result (in theory at least...). Maybe....
1Gs sustained is a caution point, 1.2Gs sustained is danger zone for the OEM pan. This is somewhat track/conditions dependent, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Generally we recommend our High Flow version Pickup if the engine is built or will be used for regular (high RPM) track duty. For street guys doing pulls to stock or below redline, the traditional pickup is just fine; it still flows better than OEM :) There is no down-side to the high Flow version besides a bigger hole in your wallet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Thanks all.

Took a long drive and the car is magnificent.

It seems to me that at present given the data I have researched (NASIOC threads) that to change anything at present until the warranty is done would potentially void the warranty. My local tuning shop thinks even the oil pickup could cause issues (and they agree it shouldn't if one is logical). Based on what they have seen and experienced. Issues are not based on logic but on where can SOA draw the line. SOA I feel has been forced into things by a host of people doing stupid stuff to their cars so I totally understand the SOA perspective and this is not a whine.

SOA has a tough job and speaking from my personal perspective, they have always been fair when people have followed the rules, so the way to move forward is to have the rules refined rather than abrogate the rules and hope for the best. The former approach is fair. The latter is what people do (how many accessports get sold per year....) and the repose given by those doing things is just always "pay to play." Fair enough. A new stock engine is about $8-12k in my local market at a shop I like.

There is a solution and other car manufacturers have decided to address things in a productive fashion:

So, to Subaru of America - I think it would be wonderful if you would come up with a process vendors could apply to so that "accessories" could gain approval for use under warranty.

Let's take the oil pickup as an example. A vendor would get a process to which they would ascribe/confirm how the device fits the current specifications of the car's stock unit properly and meets or exceeds the standard part's functionality and/or durability. Some standard testing process would be used...say use in a car for x0,000 miles with measurements of affects values (oil temp for example, or oil flow rates, etc.). SOA would not offer to replace like for like if such a part were in place, but would agree to not void a warranty if such a part were in use. Much like if a FRAM oil filter that meets all specs is used or a FRAM air filter that meets all specs. Not sure such FRAM units exist that say FRAM on them (they say Subaru on them perhaps).

Thus, a windage tray, an oil pan, and perhaps even tubing/fittings for cooling could be placed in the category...things that don't require recalibration of the ECU should be fine and allowed.

We own a Volvo XC40 too. That car came with Polestar tuning as a factory option. Polestar used to be a tuner and Volvo bought them or somehow works with them. Perhaps someday Subaru will merge with Cobb or the like. While not a protune, it would be cool to be able to go to the dealer and pay 500 dollars for a cobb option or perhaps 1000 for an airbox and a cobb airbox tune option....etc. SOA would make a lot of money doing this and they'd have the ability to perhaps do better in the market against other cars like the supra, the focus RS, the type R honda civic, and the Golf R (and soo the 400z). And things would become a lot more open and honest...that would perhaps hurt smaller tuners..but it would protect perhaps 50 to 89% of consumers doing this sort of thing. And win over the hearts of the enthusiasts. Given the issues with ECU tuning in California, this may save the tuner space too.

Other examples than come to mind are BMW -Alpina and perhaps DINAN, Mercedes and AMG, and there are probably others. Manthey and Porsche.


Anyway, I find it very frustrating that it seems likely my warranty would get voided if I wanted to add the killer b (or whatever vendors') oiling products even if they only protect the car and frankly lower warranty claims - and save SOA money. My willingness to spend about 1000 dollars after installation to decrease the risk profile to SOA is an odd reality.


Maybe SOA will figure this out. Maybe these things can become "STI officially certified accessories" or the like. Like an STI exhaust or oil filter now.....would be nice.

Very first world problem.

Let's go back the first line of this too long post.
The car, as it stands as a stock 2019 is sublime. And I very much think the SOA 7y/100k bumper to bumper zero deductible warranty is also sublime. It means I can drive my car and have no worries. Those who build their cars always seem worried (even if they have the money, have a car go down for weeks+ is not fun).


After the warranty the plan is to be smart and do something with a protune if still legal.

jb
 

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Actuaries and risk management calculations will always prevent car manufacturers from widening a car's operating tolerances by allowing us to "improve" a vehicle within the fine print of a warranty. A world wide car network has so many moving parts, that not having rigid operational parameters would lead to far too many "ya but" scenarios that could effect their bottom line. Sadly the "yea but we'll sell more" plea doesn't hold water in the eyes of any actuary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Agreed ....BUT, Mercedes bought AMG, BMW has ALPINA models, etc. Subaru sells accessories like a short shifter and a bushsing...and exhausts...and wheels. They could do high performance oil supply parts for high G loads, etc.
 

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Agreed ....BUT, Mercedes bought AMG, BMW has ALPINA models, etc. Subaru sells accessories like a short shifter and a bushsing...and exhausts...and wheels. They could do high performance oil supply parts for high G loads, etc.
You have to keep in mind Subaru isn't involved in racing anymore. There is no factory supported race team like AMG, BMW, Porsche, etc... That's not where they make money how other brands do. Rewind back to the mid 90s to 2000s and yeah they were involved with WRC, and it certainly drew many to the brand, but that is no more. Subaru makes money selling the Crosstrek and they are more than happy to break sales record after sales record doing that. The WRX and STi hare niche models, not bread-n-butter models. There is no longer any kind of program to get involved with Subaru on the 'factory upgrade' front. Those days are gone for now.

As far as our oiling products, we do have dealers install our pickup on cars under factory warranty. Likely because they never want that car to come back, lol. This is of course completely up to the dealership, and few will veer from OEM, which is understandable. The first time we her a request for oil pickups from a dealer I was honestly shocked. The short of that, is some dealers are aftermarket friendly, but most are not. Heck, I've been doing this long enough I've seen dealers completely change from enthusiast friendly, to not, in a matter of a few years because of changes in management. If you want to be 100% certain you don't have an issue, stay stock.
 
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