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Discussion Starter #21
Get yourself a sample of fire sleeve (the orange stuff) and slide it over the adapter/sender. If the headers are in fact influencing the sensor temps, this should solve that. If not, you know it's another factor.




No. Not on a street application. For a track car or dry weather only car it's much less of an issue.



It's definitely a long process, taking many days. 4 weeks including shipping during the slow season and longer during the busy season.

I think most of the complaints are from people that have never used the service before and don't know what to expect. Application is difficult to precisely control so there can be overspray on v-band flanges. It just takes a little time to clear off; it's not difficult. There are not nearly as many complaints as there are happy customers. Half of the headers we sell, are bought with the Swain Tech option. With our Vektor Performance headers, about 80% order with the Swain Tech option.



Thanks for the heads up. We are scheduled to make web-updates soon and that is on our list.

Gotcha. I'll give the fire sleeve a try.

It mostly just seems odd that the temps jumped so drastically immediately after the header install. It seems most likely that something is being affected... hopefully it's just a false reading off the sensor and insulating it can take care of it.
 

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Gotcha. I'll give the fire sleeve a try.

It mostly just seems odd that the temps jumped so drastically immediately after the header install. It seems most likely that something is being affected... hopefully it's just a false reading off the sensor and insulating it can take care of it.

The wire for the sender seems to be a nice thermal conductor, so the sleeve may help, although in my case, the sender had been on a sandwich adapter by the filter. My issue was solved with a new crossover pipe and moving the temp sensor into the Killer B pan. The fire sleeve might help, but I'd be a little surprised if you are really getting that much heat conducted so far away. Is there any chance that your sender is routed near something very hot?



Having an undertray (and properly fitting bumper) to keep air flowing properly through the radiator and engine bay also proved to be a significant factor in runaway track temps for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
The wire for the sender seems to be a nice thermal conductor, so the sleeve may help, although in my case, the sender had been on a sandwich adapter by the filter. My issue was solved with a new crossover pipe and moving the temp sensor into the Killer B pan. The fire sleeve might help, but I'd be a little surprised if you are really getting that much heat conducted so far away. Is there any chance that your sender is routed near something very hot?



Having an undertray (and properly fitting bumper) to keep air flowing properly through the radiator and engine bay also proved to be a significant factor in runaway track temps for me.
It isn't routed any differently than it was before the new headers... the car actually had a factory gauge pack stock from Subaru with an oil temp sensor and the Defi sensor is routed exactly how the factory one was. The sensor itself is installed in the oil pan drain plug. I will go ahead and check though that the wire isn't sitting extra close to the new headers or anything.

I still have the factory plastic undertray... I do have a Beatrush undertray on order which should hopefully be showing up in the next couple weeks.
 

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The one nice thing about CO is that they don't salt the roads here. So while it would be exposed to wet conditions (or as much as the undertray lets through), it wouldn't be getting covered in salt. :)

I hate to break it to you but in the last 10-15 years CO has started using
both brine (salt in water) and magnesium chloride on the roads in winter.


It gets bad enough now that chrome starts degrading in 1-2 years.


Where I live they don't even really plow anymore just dump mag chloride....dump.dump
.dump until the snow turns black. Then they wonder why the trees on the sides of roads die and wildlife gets hit (because they lick the salt off the roads).



In fact they drop it on the roads days in advance of any perceived snowfall....most of the time it won't even need it.


In many ways liquid brine and liquid mag chloride are worse than gritty salt because it
can get in so many more places and dry.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Update...

Got some Fire Sleeve... covered the sender and about half the exposed gauge wire in it. Then wrapped the rest of the wire in gold heat tape. No change unfortunately. So, while the gauge itself could be wonky... the heat isn't affecting the reading.

I'm kinda doubting the gauge is off as it wasn't touched during the header install and immediately started showing higher temps after the headers were on.

I also got some of DEI's new oil filter heatshields, so I'm going to try that next and see if that has any measurable benefit.

Also thinking to try to pick up a Killer B oil pan here soon... mostly for the extra oil capacity on track, but also thinking it'll help with oil temps some.
 

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Update...

Got some Fire Sleeve... covered the sender and about half the exposed gauge wire in it. Then wrapped the rest of the wire in gold heat tape. No change unfortunately. So, while the gauge itself could be wonky... the heat isn't affecting the reading.

I'm kinda doubting the gauge is off as it wasn't touched during the header install and immediately started showing higher temps after the headers were on.

Although that may be a good reason to not jump to the conclusion that the gauge/sensor has gone bad, I wouldn't rule it out. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to diagnose that deterministicly without spare parts to swap in.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Although that may be a good reason to not jump to the conclusion that the gauge/sensor has gone bad, I wouldn't rule it out. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to diagnose that deterministicly without spare parts to swap in.

True. I think probably a pot of boiling water would be a good way to test it. Water boils at right about 200 degrees at this altitude.

It does seem to be acting normally though... just reading about 20ish degrees higher than it did before.
 

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I hate to break it to you but in the last 10-15 years CO has started using
both brine (salt in water) and magnesium chloride on the roads in winter.


It gets bad enough now that chrome starts degrading in 1-2 years.


Where I live they don't even really plow anymore just dump mag chloride....dump.dump
.dump until the snow turns black. Then they wonder why the trees on the sides of roads die and wildlife gets hit (because they lick the salt off the roads).



In fact they drop it on the roads days in advance of any perceived snowfall....most of the time it won't even need it.


In many ways liquid brine and liquid mag chloride are worse than gritty salt because it
can get in so many more places and dry.
It often makes my Diff Overheat light light. :(


Although that may be a good reason to not jump to the conclusion that the gauge/sensor has gone bad, I wouldn't rule it out. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to diagnose that deterministicly without spare parts to swap in.
Assuming it's an RTD measure the sensor from inside with a DVM - when cold and warm though you might want a second one to compare if you can't find what it is supposed to be. Could be a thermocouple, but not so likely.
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
Assuming it's an RTD measure the sensor from inside with a DVM - when cold and warm though you might want a second one to compare if you can't find what it is supposed to be. Could be a thermocouple, but not so likely.
No idea at all what any of this means except that I might need a second sensor to compare :lol:

I imagine that if I were to heat a pot of water to a known temperature and then test if the sensor reads that temperature... that would be a good test?

In any case though... I really don't think it was the sensor. It read perfectly normal, then I changed the headers WITHOUT even touching or really even coming near the sensor... then it immediately reads 20 degrees or so higher.

It could totally be a coincidence... but it would be pretty crazy timing if the sensor went bad, all on its own, at the exact time I changed the headers.

The biggest thing that I've noticed with the temps is how they follow driving conditions. Oddly enough... the temps seem to be highest when I'm cruising for long periods of time under mild, consistent load. Say about 0 boost, minimal to 0 vacuum, 3k ish RPM. Like climbing a prolonged hill at the speed limit. They actually stay a lot lower when I'm getting into boost more, say like having fun on a windy road. Lots of hard pulls in a row will make them climb, of course.

Also odd... the temps don't seem to be very affected by temperature. 60ish degrees ambient is giving similar temps to 30 degrees ambient.
 

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Update...
Also thinking to try to pick up a Killer B oil pan here soon... mostly for the extra oil capacity on track, but also thinking it'll help with oil temps some.
It's definitely a good track mod insurance policy. As far as oil temps, it's not substitute for a remote oil cooler, but does generally bring temps down ~5-15°f. These cars run fairly cold oil temps compared to most other turbo cars out there. Remote coolers are needed far less often unless you are track only, high HP, and in the southern states. Often times necessity requires more than one of these conditions to occur.

If you track and use a high quality synthetic, 250°f is when to keep a watchful eye and 260°f is when it's time to take a cool down lap. My personal sweet spot for our engines (and even OEM engines), the oils we use, and the conditions we see, is ~220°-240°.
 

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As killer b already mentioned, radiant heat from a header will NOT affect oil temperatures. Air is a terrible conductor and the gap is way to big.

If you had the car tuned after installing the header, my money is on the tune running hotter.
 

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I imagine that if I were to heat a pot of water to a known temperature and then test if the sensor reads that temperature... that would be a good test?
Yes. It is a 2 wire sensor? You can most likely measure a resistance at a fixed temperature. Two points are better, freezing (use a glass of water and ice that has sit for a bit.) and boiling.

In any case though... I really don't think it was the sensor. . . .
The biggest thing that I've noticed with the temps is how they follow driving conditions. Oddly enough... the temps seem to be highest when I'm cruising for long periods of time under mild, consistent load. Say about 0 boost, minimal to 0 vacuum, 3k ish RPM. Like climbing a prolonged hill at the speed limit. They actually stay a lot lower when I'm getting into boost more, say like having fun on a windy road. Lots of hard pulls in a row will make them climb, of course.

Also odd... the temps don't seem to be very affected by temperature. 60ish degrees ambient is giving similar temps to 30 degrees ambient.
To prove to yourself it not "air" related you could trigger you fans when its reading hot to insure there is air flow and maintain the conditions otherwise. See if temp changes and how fast.

But I'm with Awenthol. This sounds more like tune.

Without re-reading, you installed the header with or without re-tuning? Was the tune a "pro-tune"? I hate that term. Sounds as if this is under closed loop. Do you have an A/F gauge? Hot is generally lean?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
It's definitely a good track mod insurance policy. As far as oil temps, it's not substitute for a remote oil cooler, but does generally bring temps down ~5-15°f. These cars run fairly cold oil temps compared to most other turbo cars out there. Remote coolers are needed far less often unless you are track only, high HP, and in the southern states. Often times necessity requires more than one of these conditions to occur.

If you track and use a high quality synthetic, 250°f is when to keep a watchful eye and 260°f is when it's time to take a cool down lap. My personal sweet spot for our engines (and even OEM engines), the oils we use, and the conditions we see, is ~220°-240°.
I'd been considering the pan mostly from everything I've heard about the possibility of lateral loads on track causing oil starvation. But dropping the temps would be a good side benefit too. Not sure how to tell if I'm in a danger zone with oil starvation, but I think I might be getting close.

Funny enough, I was already planning on an external oil cooler this year. My car is not high HP or track only but last season I was pretty consistently hitting 250 during 20 minute sessions. Almost entirely on tracks in Colorado with a couple days in Phoenix in late November.

mheyman said:
Yes. It is a 2 wire sensor? You can most likely measure a resistance at a fixed temperature. Two points are better, freezing (use a glass of water and ice that has sit for a bit.) and boiling.
Gotcha. I do believe it's a 2 wire... I can check.

awenthol said:
If you had the car tuned after installing the header, my money is on the tune running hotter.
mheyman said:
Without re-reading, you installed the header with or without re-tuning? Was the tune a "pro-tune"? I hate that term. Sounds as if this is under closed loop. Do you have an A/F gauge? Hot is generally lean?
That's an interesting idea. The car was retuned after the header was installed. The car had previously been dyno tuned by CamTuning down in Albuquerque... he cancelled on me the night before the tune appointment this time around so I got it e-tuned by Eric at Torqued Performance.

I do have a wideband AFR gauge. It does seem to run fairly lean (14s) until boost comes on. Goes quite rich at WOT, usually 10.4-10.8. I've seen 10.2 a few times in higher gears.
 

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So normal AFR.

You have to start with something you know is good and work from there.
I'd start with the sensor. If bad, all this is moot.
 

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I'd been considering the pan mostly from everything I've heard about the possibility of lateral loads on track causing oil starvation. But dropping the temps would be a good side benefit too. Not sure how to tell if I'm in a danger zone with oil starvation, but I think I might be getting close.
What I tell people is that if you're doing only an accassional track day then the OEM pan is sufficient. If you are doing more than the occasional track day, then between your level of experience and likely mods (or both) you will be very close to the limits of the factory oil pan. Beyond that, you will definitely exceed the OEM pan's capabilities. If you're at a level of running slicks, cage, and all the suspension mods, then our Oil Control Valve is recommended to lateral loads above 1.6Gs sustained.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
What I tell people is that if you're doing only an accassional track day then the OEM pan is sufficient. If you are doing more than the occasional track day, then between your level of experience and likely mods (or both) you will be very close to the limits of the factory oil pan. Beyond that, you will definitely exceed the OEM pan's capabilities. If you're at a level of running slicks, cage, and all the suspension mods, then our Oil Control Valve is recommended to lateral loads above 1.6Gs sustained.
I think I'm kinda in the middle there. Nothing like the loads seen by a race car or anything but on the faster side for a street car setup.

Last year I did 5 track days. Probably about that many this year, maybe another one or two if I can.

Car is stock motor with headers, intake, turboback, tune. On RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers, Vorschlag camber plates with lots of camber at the track (-3.5 front, -2 rear), swaybars, most bushings done. No cage. Last season I was on 245 RE-71r/RS4's for tires -- hoping to go to 265s this season.

I'm no pro but I usually am one of the faster drivers out there. I often find I run considerably faster times than people expect out of a street car.
 

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I plan on upgrading just for the increased oil capacity alone. I will be tracking my car more, and it might be overkill but I want an oil temp gauge and the pan fits all those requirements for me.
 

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I think I'm kinda in the middle there. Nothing like the loads seen by a race car or anything but on the faster side for a street car setup.
You're a wee bit beyond what I'd call safe for OEM. The OEM setup is generally good to ~1.1-1.2Gs. You have some sticky street tires and decent suspensions and more than an occasional track day... Plus you said you're on the faster side considering the cars. This is what I'd call a 'better safe than sorry' scenario.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
You're a wee bit beyond what I'd call safe for OEM. The OEM setup is generally good to ~1.1-1.2Gs. You have some sticky street tires and decent suspensions and more than an occasional track day... Plus you said you're on the faster side considering the cars. This is what I'd call a 'better safe than sorry' scenario.
Gotcha. Definitely ok with giving the motor as much of a fighting chance as I can :)

I'm curious though... if the Oil Control Valve would eliminate the issue of G's pushing oil, wouldn't that be the best solution even on a non-racecar? Or does the OEM pan have other ways in which it falls short?

BTW... I like the description of the Oil Control Valve on your website :lol: Kudos for not pushing racecar parts on those who don't need them.
 

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Danny, it might be easier to use an IR thermometer to test the sensor in place instead of messing with boiling water and such.

I ran the road course at PPIR a couple years ago and my temps peaked at 245ºF with the Killer B pan, baffle, pickup. That was with my old gauges, but as far as I know the oil temp at least was accurate. I do think the pan is totally worth it even for the time attack series. The track has way more grip than your typical autocross surface and the corners are generally longer. My temps there peak at about 225-230ºF.
 
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