IW STi Forum banner

21 - 40 of 571 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Re: My first engine build.

Did Rallispec perform a align hone on your block with your ARP main studs?

Either way, I would use your ARP studs, they pull differently than the stockers (we received different readings than stockers at stock torque, I think my buddy said that was due to the ARP lube). We did not end up using stock torque, read below.

(I wrote this in Smitty's journal too as he is using ARP main studs as well for his build )Are you using stock torque specs or ARP specs. I can't quite remember the torque of the stock bolts as the final sequence is a angle turn sequence (quite a bit lower thougher).
When we did final assembly on my 08 last summer, ARP had 70 ft. lbs on the sheet and we knew this was going to be over kill without an align hone on my block. We actually went with 58 ft lbs. at the time and picked bearing halves to get the results we wanted. The new ARP main studs instructions are rated at 60 ft lbs.

Nope they didn't align hone, they measured the journals and didn't deem it necessary.

The reason I asked about stock vs ARP studs was cuz I only have the old stockers layin around, as well as the old bearings. So I've just been practicing plastigaging with the old stuff.
I haven't ordered the bearings or ARP's yet cuz I'm tryna order parts in the correct order that I'll be needing to use/install them (like WTF am I gonna do with an oil/water pump, head studs/gaskets right now??)
So the next things will be bearings, ARP mains (maybe head's too, if I get a good deal), and gasket kit since I need those 3 o-rings between the block halves for assembly.

The stock specs for the main studs are CRAZY low, or at least I thought so; 14.8ft-lb + 90* turn. Are they not stretch bolts?? :confused:
So you did like 3 equal steps for the ARP's? 20-40-60?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
405 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

Nope they didn't align hone, they measured the journals and didn't deem it necessary.

The reason I asked about stock vs ARP studs was cuz I only have the old stockers layin around, as well as the old bearings. So I've just been practicing plastigaging with the old stuff.
I haven't ordered the bearings or ARP's yet cuz I'm tryna order parts in the correct order that I'll be needing to use/install them (like WTF am I gonna do with an oil/water pump, head studs/gaskets right now??)
So the next things will be bearings, ARP mains (maybe head's too, if I get a good deal), and gasket kit since I need those 3 o-rings between the block halves for assembly.

The stock specs for the main studs are CRAZY low, or at least I thought so; 14.8ft-lb + 90* turn. Are they not stretch bolts?? :confused:
So you did like 3 equal steps for the ARP's? 20-40-60?
Ok, gotcha, just asking since we torqued the ARP down to full spec and we could not get get nice numbers on the mains. Yes we did 3 equal steps on the ARP's.

The stocker mains are stretch bolts, we have re-used them many times with no problems. I think money is better spent on the head bolts and re-use the stockers for the mains. Use whatever your more comfortable using, I just wanted to try the ARP mains for my personal build.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
Re: My first engine build.

Ahh true I never thought about stock main bolts bein sufficient enough.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/built-motor-discussion/237104-what-case-bolts-do-you-have.html


But now that I think about it... it's not like there's a crazy amount of pressure (if any. only from blow-by) in the crankcase between the block halves that the main bolts need to contain. Not like headstuds that are preventing 20psi x2 of the head lifting off the block.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
405 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

Ahh true I never thought about stock main bolts bein sufficient enough.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/built-motor-discussion/237104-what-case-bolts-do-you-have.html


But now that I think about it... it's not like there's a crazy amount of pressure (if any. only from blow-by) in the crankcase between the block halves that the main bolts need to contain. Not like headstuds that are preventing 20psi x2 of the head lifting off the block.
Yeah exactly, the headstuds are taking a lot more abuse and you said it... x2 on these motors. The problem always seems to be with rod bearings on these motors not main bearings anway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Re: My first engine build.

So a bit looser rod bearing clearances "should" help prevent spinning a rod bearing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
405 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

So a bit looser rod bearing clearances "should" help prevent spinning a rod bearing?
Yeah, and good oil pressure when your foot is in it. Were running .002 on the mains and
.002-.0022 on the rods on my 08 using a stock 08 oil pump with one shim (this is running dual avcs). 20w50 oil.

On single AVCS setups were using .0015 on the mains and .002 on the rods with a stock 08 oil pump no shim and if they are pure race we are also using .002 on the mains. Then either 10w40 for .0015 mains or 20w50 for .002 mains.

I'm guessing these numbers work as one of Bretts builds now has over 50,000 miles, however its a 35r elementuing rotated kit that sees 25 psi every day and over 30 psi on C16 at the track. This is one is on .0015 mains and .002 rods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Re: My first engine build.

This sucks, I work for a bearing manufacturer, but I still gotta buy bearings. WTF!??! :lol::lol:






Innnteresttingggg. These are ACL HX's, extra oil clearance. Brand new crank.
.0015 on the rods. A bit tighter than I'd like. What to dooo, what to doooooo :confused::confused:








Also, what are the torque specs for aftermarket rod bolts? Factory 38.4ft-lb??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
Re: My first engine build.

Drilled/taped my header for my EGT sensor yesterday, so I finally have all my Defi's working :tup::cool:






Gonna go check the other 2 rod and all the main clearances today, hopefully the mains will be in spec :p
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,688 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

Those Manley rods on that 2liter were 75 lbs ft or 90 depending upon bolt size. Check online for the rod manufacturer. I found specs there. Looking good, even though you had to spend money on bearings. Did you at least get a discount?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Re: My first engine build.

Those Manley rods on that 2liter were 75 lbs ft or 90 depending upon bolt size. Check online for the rod manufacturer. I found specs there. Looking good, even though you had to spend money on bearings. Did you at least get a discount?


Nahh didn't get a discount since I work for a diff bearing manuf :lol:


I just emailed Carillo for the tq specs since I couldn't find my exact rod bolts listed in their application guide/tq specs list, but it looks like its gonna be either 35 or 40ft-lb.
75-90 is insaneeee!!

But @ the stock tq spec of 38, I switched the rods around on the crank so I got .002" on 3 rods, but I had to lower the tq to 34ft-lb on the last one to get .002", otherwise I was only getting .0015. So I'll wait to see what Carillo hasta say.


Than I moved onto the mains, with the old stock case bolts @ OEM tq specs. 3 diff attempts, switching bearings between #1 and 3 position, and 2 and 4. #5 is the trust bearing, so didn't touch that one. Shooting for .0015" here

First Attempt:
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
.0015" .002" .003" .003" .0015"
So I swapped the entire 1st with 3rd, and the entire 2nd and 4th bearings.


Second Attempt:
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
.00125 .0017 .0015 .0015 .00125

So then I only swapped HALF a bearing between 1 and 3, and got;
Third:
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
.001 .0017 .0014 .0015 .001


What really got me was I never touched #5, and got .0005" variation.
Since looser is "safer", is my first attempt my best option??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
Re: My first engine build.

Carillo says for these rods/bolts; "Not to EXCEED 40ft-lb's" :tup:


I'm so sick of dealing with this stupid plastigauge, making sure the rod doesn't spin on the crank when I'm torque'ing/untorque'ing the bolts, etc...

And I keep getting .0015" for the last rod, all others are .002", so I torque'd all the bolts on the rods with the bearings in place, gonna bring them into work tomorrow and bore guage the ID of the bearings which will measure down to the .0001" :cool: Then simply subtract the journal OD, and hope for around .002" :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

Sounds like you've got a good plan.
A handy dandy Excel spread sheet with targets & actuals helps a lot. It's easy to get lost in all the numbers sometimes.
Plastigage is an ok tool but if you've got the right instruments it's much better to do what you're doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Re: My first engine build.

Sounds like you've got a good plan.
A handy dandy Excel spread sheet with targets & actuals helps a lot. It's easy to get lost in all the numbers sometimes.
Plastigage is an ok tool but if you've got the right instruments it's much better to do what you're doing.


Yup I've been using an excel spreadsheet since day 1 :tup:
Normally I'll take like 4 readings per measurement and average them and use that, except for the ID of rod bearings where you only take the smallest measurement, along the axis of the rod, and things like that.

Just bore gauged the rod bearings, they're all 2.0484 +- .0002", and the rod journals are all 2.0469, which is only .0015" :mad::p
The BEST rod/journal combination is only .0018".

I'll re-mic the crank journals tonight, see if I get anything drastically different.
If not, I mighta hafta get the crank ground down, IF its possible to take .0005" off :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
405 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

Yup I've been using an excel spreadsheet since day 1 :tup:
Normally I'll take like 4 readings per measurement and average them and use that, except for the ID of rod bearings where you only take the smallest measurement, along the axis of the rod, and things like that.

Just bore gauged the rod bearings, they're all 2.0484 +- .0002", and the rod journals are all 2.0469, which is only .0015" :mad::p
The BEST rod/journal combination is only .0018".

I'll re-mic the crank journals tonight, see if I get anything drastically different.
If not, I mighta hafta get the crank ground down, IF its possible to take .0005" off :(
Haven't checked in awhile, we have used a mix of Cosworth extra clearance (size 2) rod bearings as they seem to run a touch looser than ACL extra clearance when you have one that is just a little tight. Like you said you could get the crank ground. I was taught how to use a Mic and bore gauge though I don't know if that measures any different than plastigauge, though it looks like it does just a little by your numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Re: My first engine build.

Yea plastigauge isn't very accurate at all, screw that stuff.

I re-mic'd the rod journals last night, and just with a lil extra umph turnin the mic a c*nt-hair more on each journal, I got a coupla more tenths on each journal, averaging 2.0463, giving me clearances of .0019 .0019 .002 and .002 :)


Onto the mains! Those are gonna be a bit harder since we (at work) don't have a bore guage long enough to get to the mains all the way on the inside of the block. Any ideas?
Otherwise plastigauge is my only option. :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Re: My first engine build.

No motor progress recently.
Cars been down since saturday when I attempted to change 2 axle boots, but snapped a bolt holding the rear suspension together. Destroyed the lat link bushings so I'm just waiting for them and CV boot kits to come in to get her on the road again.

But I did install XM radio the other day, can't wait to finally start listening to something other than my iPod. I've never had regular radio reception since day 1, dunno why :confused::lol:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,688 Posts
Re: My first engine build.

By now the engine I finished should have over 300 miles on it. Finished it and test drove, I actually like that little 2.1l stroker motor. Hope to see it again once over 1K miles and if the owner ever rebuilds his kitty to pay a tuner (was cheaping me out near the end). Oil was clean after first 50 miles (gonna send a sample to Blackstone for grins).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
Re: My first engine build.

So I took my car to the track for the first time last night (stock motor, not this built motor), and I'm pretty damn disappointed. I'm basically Stage 2.5, and wasn't using Launch Control or FFS, launching at 5500 with zero wheel spin.
I got 22 runs in (yea, that was awesome :tup::tup:) with only a best of 13.741 @ 101, and only a best 60' of 1.90.
Maybe I can launch higher to get a lil bit of wheel spin and hopefully get a better 60' of 1.75 ish??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,455 Posts
Discussion Starter #40 (Edited)
Re: My first engine build.

I know I've really been dragging ass on this build, sry guys :p:(


I borrowed a T bore gauge from work today thinking it was big enough to do the main bearing clearance, but it was too small for the mains so I re-did the rod bearings just to assure myself. Sure enough .0020 .0020 .0021 and .0020, perfect :tup:
Will borrow the next size T bore gauge tmw :tup:

Until then, onto pics for you guys
(I was also practicing my photography as well :cool:)





Lil bit of remaining plastigauge.


Sooooon enough, you guys will be together, (hopefully) forever! :cool:


All branddd newwww :tup::cool:


Crossss hatchhhh


Rod bolt
 
21 - 40 of 571 Posts
Top