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fyi:
there's two m3 issues, one with the e36 m3 (95-99) and one with the current (e46, 2001->) m3.
the e36 suffers from a bad combination of a sloppy tranny and an engine that doesnt take well to being over-revved. btw i think it's fair to say that no matter how bulletproof your engine is, you're gonna throw a rod / suck a valve / blow it up if you drop from 4K rpm in 4th to first gear.
the current m3 has a possibly similar issue with catastrphic failures. nobody really knows what's causing them, and some of them are on smg-equipped cars, which would seem to rule out over-revs.

just to add to the m3 discussion- the e46 m3 is my dream car. short of a 348 / f355 / f360 i would take this car over any other right now. but the fact of the matter is that a *used* m3 with smg is still $50K+, will only *match* the STi's performance (at least in a straight line), and i would speculate it's far less upgradeable than the STi. plus it's rwd, and i need something for the winter, which would mean buying an old impreza or loyale for ~$4K as well. i love the m3. i respect the z06 and other c5's. i think p-cars are awesome. but i just can't justify the price.
 

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Oh yeah...

miked801 said:
fyi:
there's two m3 issues, one with the e36 m3 (95-99) and one with the current (e46, 2001->) m3.
the e36 suffers from a bad combination of a sloppy tranny and an engine that doesnt take well to being over-revved. btw i think it's fair to say that no matter how bulletproof your engine is, you're gonna throw a rod / suck a valve / blow it up if you drop from 4K rpm in 4th to first gear.
the current m3 has a possibly similar issue with catastrphic failures. nobody really knows what's causing them, and some of them are on smg-equipped cars, which would seem to rule out over-revs.

just to add to the m3 discussion- the e46 m3 is my dream car. short of a 348 / f355 / f360 i would take this car over any other right now. but the fact of the matter is that a *used* m3 with smg is still $50K+, will only *match* the STi's performance (at least in a straight line), and i would speculate it's far less upgradeable than the STi. plus it's rwd, and i need something for the winter, which would mean buying an old impreza or loyale for ~$4K as well. i love the m3. i respect the z06 and other c5's. i think p-cars are awesome. but i just can't justify the price.
E46 M3 is one of the best on the market right now and i know STi has around the same or maybe even better performance, but you will get everything in the M3 except the AWD part. M3 has the look, class, performance, and all the Luxury and comfort of a BMW. Well STi, M3, or Z06 are a bargain IMO.

jack

ps- about the e46m3 engine failures, BMW just send the 01 & 02 owners a letter of extended warrties on the engines to 6yrs/100,000 miles. FYI
 

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Re: a little off-topic, but it was headed there anyway :)

back to the speculation at hand . . .

i have been reading various sites on sti and evo and i guess the hardest part is waiting for the specs/msrp/release date. people at evo site are upset 'coz evo is delayed (they couldn't make the carbon wings fast enough) or not sure of exact arrival date.

and sti fans are speculating/worrying/ranting about the msrp/weight. some say . . . "not gonna buy above 32K" some say . . . "gonna look at other cars" and others say "you're not a true fan."

here's my take on the msrp issue: like someone said somewhere, i don't think sti is targeting m3' or other "luxury" or performance sedans. they are competing against one car . . .evo. yeah, if they take away customers from other cars, they'll be happy, but sti has one enemy . . .evo. most magazines have rated evo above sti in the past and when mitsu wanted to steal people away from subi by introducing evo, subaru wasn't gonna sit still . . .

i used to be an evo fan but i think i have defected . . . after seeing evo at the show and comparing various things (performance, ride quality,interior,etc etc), i think i'm set on sti (w/wrx wing) or . . . wrx.

well, we all know how sti pooped on evo's party by coming out w/better numbers just 3 days after evo's release. now, i just wish/hope subaru comes out with msrp that will destroy mitsu . . . $29,995!!!!!! all the people on the fence will definitely go for sti!!! 31k or 32k sounds ok too, but the psychological factor of coming in under 30k sounds so good!!

anyway, i just hate the waiting and checking the forums everyday looking for some kind of rumor/leak blah blah blah . . . SOA just tell us already!!!!! you're killing us . . .

sorry for long post. just frustrated . . . and bored. . .
 

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hate the waiting part . . .

Hey that S60R is pretty sweet!...


How does BMW's AWD care compare to the Subaru system? I think its the 330xi...
 

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Hi,

The only fact I have been able to substantiate is that MOST of the information relative to pricing, delays, and delivery on the STI and EVO are unsubstantiated rumors and bovine droppings. Now rumors of 5K and 10K over MSRP on the EVO run rampart, plus some idiot apparently bid 8K over MSRP (EVO) for the right to get the first car from dealership in the North East. There will always be knuckleheads who want the next new toy.

Once the EVOs hit the dealerships, I believe the smoke will clear pretty quickly and Subaru will follow with their pricing. I am number 1 at my dealer for a new STI and will go to a maximum of $35K with a radio including tax, delivery charges, dealer prep etc. Anymore than that and I will pass.

Speedlimit......
 

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i should preface this post by saying i really don't have much technical data on the subject; only hearsay and opinions. if you disagree and you're pretty sure that you know more than i do on this one, you're most likely right.
here's a brief overview of the various awd offerings (i'll keep this confined to usdm cars):

audi quattro-
now as a bmw guy, i hate audi. but as far as awd systems go, they've been (historically) the only real competitor to subaru in the usdm market. they're just awesome in snow and dirt, and their awd system rocks on tarmac as well. being that i don't like audi, i don't follow their lineup, but if the s4 or rs6 has even remotely similar specs to the STi, it's prolly the best "luxury market" comparison to the STi (way better than the e46 m3, for example). i didn't have the patience to find specs, so i don't know for sure... i sure hope their cars are faster than their website.

mitsu lancer evo-
not much needs to be said here. they've walked all over the STi in the last ~5yrs in both wrc and road tests. simply awesome awd, geared towards performance moreso than snow / ice, but rocks in the winter as well just because it rocks so hard all-around.

subaru-
nobody can deny that in the usdm market subaru holds the crown as the king of affordable, reliable awd. they have a massive market-share (along with audi) in places where snow is deep and roads are steep. the wrx family is a proven contender in wrc and we know it rocks the snow / dirt / tarmac.

volvo-
the s60r looks like a contender, but i haven't seen performance specs. the power specs look similar to the STi, but i think jfk was in office the last time volvo made a <3000lb car. awesome car in its own right, and i'm sure worth every penny. i love volvos,; they're exceptionally safe cars and my experience tells me they have the best slushbox around.

bmw-
different companies have different views on what a sportscar should be. with subaru / mitsu it's awd. they compete in wrc and that's where their halo cars shine. with bmw and plenty of other euro companies, the world watches dtm and btc, as well as speed channel challenge and alms. as such, they will always focus on rwd. you simply won't see an awd m3. and the 330xi (i drove the first one my local dealership got) is all too unimpressive. basically, for bmw (and historically, volvo as well) awd is for the grocery-getters and the soccer moms. iirc, the awd system from the xi's was developed for the x5. they rock in the snow, they're not so spectacular on dirt, and feel like fwd on tarmac.

there's a few others, like the jaguar <coughFORDcough> x-type and whatnot, but they've never been mentioned here, so i've skipped them.
 

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MKIVSupra said:
Poirot, what are you talking about? Comparing a STi now to an M3 and then a 911??? If they were the same price what would you choose??? That makes no sense. They are no where near the same price and if they were those cars would be nothing like what they are now. Now if the STi was $50k or $120k then maybe your points would make more sense. BTW, what was the big issue they had with the M3s? Something bad enough to cause BMW to add on some extended warranty because of the problems everyone was having. Yeah that's quality all right. :roll: No offense, I understand what you mean but I just hate when people say "it's just a Subaru" as if they build crap.
Calm down.....I was using those cars as a comparison of intangibles as thought of by the average car buyer. Intangibles don't make much sense....kinda like trying to explain why one plastic interior is better than another...although they are both plastic. (But there you have it) As I stated :

Poirot said:
I am not saying that Subaru is not a well built car, but you can't always put a price tag on the intangibles. Like comparing the STi to a 911 turbo AWD. If they were the same price and preformance, which would you choose...thats the intangible difference.
We, on this board, are not the average car buyer.

Poirot
 

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Re: Praxis System Air Ride Suspension

Hey guys, just browsing here for the first time in a while. The comparisons of the US STi (or any of the current STi VIII models) to something like the G35 can be made in approximate price only. I know that those of us who have driven the US STi are rare (I have maybe 500-600 miles amassed so far), but this car is in no way comparable from a driving standpoint to something like the G35, or in my opinion, even the 350Z.

Comparing something like the G35 to the STi is like comparing a bowling ball to a bottle of wine. Yeah, they might cost the same - big deal!

The EVO (even in US Spec) and STi (whoa!) are going to present people/car magazines/journalists with the same difficulties that they faced when trying to find current cars here to compare the WRX to at its price point. I've put 50,000 miles or so on US WRXs too - and they almost should have changed the model name of the new car. It's DIFFERENT. Much more of everything good in every way (except ride comfort in the STi of course).
 

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Re: Big Brother

I'm glad to see a lot of posts here from people viewing this thing like I am. Here's my situation in a nutshell:

Family guy. Wife and 2 kids = 4 door is best.

Not a rally racer. Not wild about the fancy differential, but give me the straight-line acceleration!

Wanting a nice, reliable, quick car. This is a biggee! This means alternatives run from the Neon SRT-4 (Don't make me do this!) to the
G35 6 speed. Used M3s are viable alternatives, too.

All told, I'd love to buy an STI. What's it worth to me? North of the SRT-4, South of the new Cobra, A little above the Volkswagen R32 and the Evolution.

Final thought for Subaru folks reading this: Make the price under 30k, keep the radio, wing, etc. Make buyers willing to squander (or caught up in the heat of negotiation) pay dearly for that stuff if you want. If you really want to get into the mid-30s and above, spiff up a car with more quality bits in the interior, etc.

30k and above, I'll have to think about it. Below 30k, it's an automatic reaction that will force me to buy this car.
 

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Poirot said:
Calm down.....I was using those cars as a comparison of intangibles as thought of by the average car buyer. Intangibles don't make much sense....kinda like trying to explain why one plastic interior is better than another...although they are both plastic. (But there you have it) As I stated :

Poirot said:
I am not saying that Subaru is not a well built car, but you can't always put a price tag on the intangibles. Like comparing the STi to a 911 turbo AWD. If they were the same price and preformance, which would you choose...thats the intangible difference.
I know what you said and I am calmed down more now. :) My point is if the 911 cost the same as the STi it will not have the intangibles it does now. A $120k car is not going to be anywhere near the same as a $35k car no matter how you compare it. It's better to just leave it at what everyone else is saying and keep the prices in the same ballpark... around $35k give or take. When cars like the M3 and up get thrown in against an STi I don't know how people can compare them. Subaru must have done something right I guess if people can actually compare the STi to some of those cars.
 

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Info Documentation

I think the only reason people compare the M3 to the STi is out of sheer performance. I know that's why I do. Sure, the M3 has so much more in terms of quality, interior, exterior, name, etc, etc, etc. It is however a $45K+ car..whereas the STi is $30K+. Looking at sheer numbers the STi and Evo are steals for the performance, but this doesn't make them the best car on earth......just darned close... ;)
 

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I don't know if we should go around saying that the STi would be a steal at $35K because we all know that SOA is checking out the websites like these and just seeing how much the eager public like ourselves are willing to pay for the car. I say we start saying that $30K would be close to the limit and that over that would make us start looking at other cars. I sure hope that it is more toward the $30K mark and not too high above that. Besides I have other needs to think about like my motorcycle addiction...
 

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Discussion Starter #55
You are right SOA is checking out these sites, but the majority is NOT saying that 35K is a steal. 32K seems to be MOST peoples limit.
 

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hey psst...let's start saying the limit is 28K so that SOA will price it low :wink:

if anyone asks, I never posted this message :D
 

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i know a lot of car companies keep track of boards like this one, but i'd say it's wishful thinking at best to assume that what is said here will affect their decision.
how many STis are they planning on producing each year? 5000-6000 cars? with 3000 the first year? and this site has just over 600 (corrected from initial typo of 6000) users, of which prbably 450 visit actively, and maybe half of those will actually buy an STi? the numbers just don't add up...
remember there are still plenty of dealerships charging a premium on the still-unknown msrp. two of the three dealerships where i live are telling people $5K over sticker, and they have deposits... so obviously people are willing to pay whatever soa decides is fair.
 

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miked801 said:
and this site has just over 6000 users, of which prbably 450 visit actively....
actually more 700. (you probably accidently added an extra zero). but i *doubt* the loyalty rate is 450 users. (JJ??) for example, look at the N of the polls recently. as of today, only 32 have responded to the body/wheel color poll and the thing has been out for a week or more. i haven't seen a poll as yet with >100 votes. so perhaps the 450 number is more like 200, or lower. <shrug>
 

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91TB78 said:
Perhaps they are waiting until the car is bought..
i gotta confess, i signed up a long time ago but didn't make my first post until the morning after the sti was announed (1/7/2003). i'm sure the forums will go insane once the car is here. (geez, will that ever happen? i feel like an 8year old does one week before christmas... :) )
 
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