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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

See post #73 for the solution to this issue!


See post #8 instead of reading this post unless you want to follow the whole story.

IAM of 1.0.
No values in the fine ignition.
Dynamic advance shows my full DA value (10 degrees).
My total timing value does NOT equal my Primary + DA. I should be getting 19-20 degrees at some points but my timing is 14.5-15d. Grrrrr. Previous logs show that I had no problem running the 19-20 degrees. Nothing else has changed ... except for the gas here. I just got done detuning my car. I pulled 5 degrees of timing from 5K-6K and richened it up 1/2 pt AFR. I want my good gas back :(

We did an install on my best friend's WRX. Cobb Downpipe, Cobb Uppipe, my stock STI catback, and a stage 2 tune (by yours truly). Grrrrr. I had to pull approximately 5d of timing from his car too (compared to the popular OTS maps). More confirmation that the sucky gas has finally hit my area. I'll get more confirmation shortly as I'll be helping tune another stage 2 WRX soon.

Everyone on the east coast should double-check their timing. I'm not talking about making sure that you are getting all of your DA. The logs show that the ECU is asking for all of my DA. The IAM is at 1.0 too. But, the overall advance is not what it should be. I kept pulling timing from the main ignition map until the actual timing and the calculated timing are now equal. My only explanation is knock detection by the ECU and the subsequent reduction of timing on-the-fly.

Weird thing is that both my car and the WRX had problems only when above 5000rpms.

t
 

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I ran into the same problem with the ethanol when it hit NOVA but mone was only pulling about 1 degree right around 5000-5400 rpm but then above that it was hitting targets. That is the main reason I went to alky which doesnt allow for much more timing advance which I left my tuned values and just upped the boost and am hitting the desired targets. I am back down in Blacksburg, VA now where we still have the good stuff and on my non-alky map, everything is hitting its targets as it should be. I also noticed that if you detune your AVCS back to standard stage2 values or maybe even a bit less, the ecu likes timing way more holding timing a bit better throughout the range. Maybe you should test out Jorges discovery of setting IAM back to .7 and brake boosting it back to 1 where he found out that the 05's run better somehow. I have not attempted this yet since I went another route to get my timing back.
 

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Is all gas now have ethanol added? Some pumps say 10% enthanol, some say nothing.
 

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What has changed in the gas Wolf? Isn't ethanol 10% year round now, or is this winter gas a different mixture.
 

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The DC metro area just switched to 10% ethanol at the begining of the summer which has been cause havic for us guys retuning our cars accordingly. If the pump does not say in plain site that the gas is 10% ethanol then it is not. I live in northern VA in the summers and in southern VA during the winter/spring and down here they have not made the switch yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So today my dynamic advance multiplier went down to 0.68 :eek: . This is the first time my Advance Multiplier has ever decreased from 1.0. Of course, this is in part due to what I did and you guys probably won't ever see this. I expanded my rough correction range such that knock events in the higher RPMs will also decrease the DAM :) Yea, I'm conservative as all heck :). Stock, the DAM is only adjusted up to 5800. I expanded mine out to almost 7000. Today I saw ignition advance at a mere 13.5 degrees at 5800rpms. 13.5 degrees. I was trying to run 15d. Geezus. I am currently tuning my 5000rpm area for only 13 degrees to keep this as safe as possible .... until I can order up some Torco Accelerator to run all the time. I'll also be lowering the boost a tad too. FWIW, EGTs were only 1600d and AFRs were 10.5:1.

As far as the suggestion of using a base map with the intial DAM set lower. Yes, in fact, after Jorge's post/discussion on this subject I immediately lowered my initial value down to 0.8 to test things out. It's been that way ever since.

t
 

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Hmm interesting, the only time I have had my DAM drop was recently when I started playing with AVCS. I set the 2000rpm range to 40 and tapered down to 0 at 4k and richened up the mix a bit and it still dropped to .88. After I tuned it down to 30 and have it doing all the way up to 6800 and 5* it feels stronger and my DAM has stayed at 1 for a while. I am going to raise my rough correction and try it out as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ok. Ok.

I don't think it is the gas. I've done enough timing table changes that I can figure one thing out:

The ECU is pulling timing and it is NOT because of the DAM, it is not because of the fine ignition adjustments, and it is not because of knock (not the gas!).

ECU Police is stumped. Basically, I was adding my primary to my dynamic advance and figuring out what my total advance should be (all 3 of my DA tables are the same such that the ECU can never use more than what I am allowing). However, the WOT advance was not primary + DA. There was a -2 degree modifier coming from somewhere. So, everytimg I dropped the primary ignition down lower, the overall timing would drop lower. My original theory is that the gas was causing knock and that this was on-the-fly knock correction. Now, I don't think that is what it is. My latest test I just did should have made 13d of timing. But, alas, I am seeing -2 more. I just saw 11 degrees of total timing. NO WAY my car only wants 11 degrees of timing. No way. Between every test I did a soft ECU reset (via software). I can't go from 19 degrees to 11 degrees in a matter of a couple days when the car is running like a top (running great!). There is a -2 modifier coming from somewhere and everytime I change my primary advance and lower it, it just lowers the end result and doesn't impact this modifier whatsoever.

Sidenote: Yes, I know there are ignition modifiers for Coolant and intake temp. I'm good to go in that area.

So, I give up. I am going back to close to my original timing.

t
 

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Wait so did you just revert to your old timing map or did you change the rough correction back and you got your timing back? From what I have seen, my ecu likes the DA set to no greater or less than 8 and adds the appropiate KC as called for where as when you input say 6-10-8 the variations in timing are all over the place. Seems like the ecu likes the same KC throughout the whole rpm range so that it does not like to switch up-down or vice versus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
My KC is the same across the RPM range. It is 10. I made no other changes except to simply put my old map back on the ECU. The timing immediately went back to my previous values.

Again, I am getting all my dynamic advance. I have it set to 10 and the ECU reports 10. The DAM is at 1.0. The fine learning shows no value in the knock table. Everything looks great! It's just that the reported total timing doesn't match up with what my primary + DA is suppose to be. Just as turboqueef saw too.

I have a knocklite now too so that will be installed shortly. BTW, did you utilize a new knock sensor or did you tap off the stock knock sensor?

t
 

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I tapped the stocker. I almost bought a knocklink on ebay but it didnt include a sensor either so I just went with the Knocklite. New knock sensors are pretty pricey for what they are and if the stock one works fine why not use it was my thought behind it unless you want to bolt it up in another location away for possible rattles and etc. false knock.

Also I have noticed that the ecu will pull timing immediately if any excessive noise is heard without droppping the IAM and/or placing a value immediately in the knock learning table. i.e. I was playing with AVCS the other day and in my log it my timing dropped 2* at 4k without reducing my IAM or decreasing the KC but it did report KNOCK in the knock sensor. Maybe the ecu has a reflex when ever it is hears a bad noise w/o using the KC or IAM because it may just be faster w/o so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
crystal_Imprezav said:
Also I have noticed that the ecu will pull timing immediately if any excessive noise is heard without droppping the IAM and/or placing a value immediately in the knock learning table. i.e. I was playing with AVCS the other day and in my log it my timing dropped 2* at 4k without reducing my IAM or decreasing the KC but it did report KNOCK in the knock sensor. Maybe the ecu has a reflex when ever it is hears a bad noise w/o using the KC or IAM because it may just be faster w/o so.
That was my original thought too. However, after reducing the total timing down to 13d and seeing the ECU use 11d, I _really_ feel that it can't be that. As soon as I dropped my other map back on there the timing shot back up to 15.5 and the car is happy. If it was real knock then when I had it set to 13d it would have run 13d. Eh, who knows. I shot off a PM to Jorge to get some input. I asked Christian but I think I need to drop him another note on this subject.

t
 

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WolfPlayer said:
So today my dynamic advance multiplier went down to 0.68 :eek: . This is the first time my Advance Multiplier has ever decreased from 1.0. Of course, this is in part due to what I did and you guys probably won't ever see this. I expanded my rough correction range such that knock events in the higher RPMs will also decrease the DAM :) Yea, I'm conservative as all heck :). Stock, the DAM is only adjusted up to 5800. I expanded mine out to almost 7000. Today I saw ignition advance at a mere 13.5 degrees at 5800rpms. 13.5 degrees. I was trying to run 15d. Geezus. I am currently tuning my 5000rpm area for only 13 degrees to keep this as safe as possible .... until I can order up some Torco Accelerator to run all the time. I'll also be lowering the boost a tad too. FWIW, EGTs were only 1600d and AFRs were 10.5:1.

As far as the suggestion of using a base map with the intial DAM set lower. Yes, in fact, after Jorge's post/discussion on this subject I immediately lowered my initial value down to 0.8 to test things out. It's been that way ever since.

t
This is going to sound crazy.... but lean out the mixture.... you're probobly running SO rich with such small timing values, that you're misfiring; and the ECU is reading that as detonation.

EDIT: Oh yeah, check your PM's ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
RiftsWRX said:
This is going to sound crazy.... but lean out the mixture.... you're probobly running SO rich with such small timing values, that you're misfiring; and the ECU is reading that as detonation.

EDIT: Oh yeah, check your PM's ;)
Thanks Jorge.

1) I am currently running 11:1 AFRs (the 10.5:1 was another test that didn't work). The 11:1 AFRs should be fine (IMHO).
2) Replied to your PM regarding interpolation - but, it is a non-issue given that I put the same value across the points for testing purposes.

t
 

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WolfPlayer said:
Thanks Jorge.

1) I am currently running 11:1 AFRs (the 10.5:1 was another test that didn't work). The 11:1 AFRs should be fine (IMHO).
2) Replied to your PM regarding interpolation - but, it is a non-issue given that I put the same value across the points for testing purposes.

t
11:1... ;)

So damn rich... heh
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Yea, call me crazy for running 11:1 AFRs :)

I think people expect my car to be crazy fast or something. I don't think it is. I do, however, believe my tune to be safe. I'm not trying to create butt-loads of power. I have no desire to milk this car for all it has. I am willing to leave 15whp on the table for something safer. Furthermore, I have no need for some rediculous torque number because in an all out drag race I will basically never be at 2800-3400rpms anyhow. Thus, I don't run 20+ psi to get a nice torque number because I think it's sorta 'padding the power'.

FWIW, my MAF volts are very healthy (not that THAT means a damn thing).

I just can't get over running 18psi with 12.x:1. Yea, it tapers in the upper RPMs so you can try to lean it out a bit there. But, the way I am look at it is that the stock ECU runs rediclously rich. I have already leaned it out by ~1.3 AFR points (and more). It's already buttloads leaner than stock. It might not be lean enough to make the best power, but it is lean enough to make good power (IMHO) -- and, as stated before, I have no desire to make buttloads of power. I'm ok with 290whp. I don't need 305-310whp. C'mon, let's get real anyhow. 15whp is nothing (IMHO). I GLADLY give up 15whp+ for a tune that I believe to be safer. But, then again, I come from the V8 crowd where I added ~200whp to my camaro on the stock block and did not use forced induction or nitrous.

t
 
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