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F12 is hardly a track car IMO. That is a grand touring car, a street car that is brutally fast, that can be driven cross country with ease.

Z/28 was designed for one thing and that was to be fast around a track, it's a track car. You think they are just fat tires? Lmao they're racing compound tires, that alone is worth a ton of time on the track, just ask anyone who actually races their car.

Which car are you gonna take? An F12 or z/28? I think that goes without saying. Lol
I'd take the Z28 honestly. Difference in insurance must be astronomical between the 2. I'd get the Z28 and a condo for the difference in cost from the F12 and have money left over to bump the horsepower on the Z28 even further . F12 is nice,(I'm italian so I am biased toward italian bred supercars), I actually have a cell phone pic of one I came across on the highway last month in white...nice car, but even though it may be more comfortable amenity wise...I'd still be a nervous wreck about driving it. The Z28, I'd probably feel fine getting in and ripping around in it taking it to the movies supermarket etc etc. Also the Z28 is hardly anything radical for street driving. Compound and size of the tires alone do not account for the Z28's relative performance next to the F12 or Nismo for the reasons I already explained. If anything the Z28 at it's current horsepower level is more than likely underachieving given how close it is to those cars with FAR less technology. It's just very well thought out suspension engineering and unbelievable ceramic brakes. The ferrari would be nice to take to the "country club" or something LOL. Besides if I wanted 700+ horsepower I can get a hellcat and still have a quarter million left over LOL. Think about it.
 

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I'd take the Z28 honestly. Difference in insurance must be astronomical between the 2. I'd get the Z28 and a condo for the difference in cost from the F12 and have money left over to bump the horsepower on the Z28 even further . F12 is nice,(I'm italian so I am biased toward italian bred supercars), I actually have a cell phone pic of one I came across on the highway last month in white...nice car, but even though it may be more comfortable amenity wise...I'd still be a nervous wreck about driving it. The Z28, I'd probably feel fine getting in and ripping around in it taking it to the movies supermarket etc etc. Also the Z28 is hardly anything radical for street driving. Compound and size of the tires alone do not account for the Z28's relative performance next to the F12 or Nismo for the reasons I already explained. If anything the Z28 at it's current horsepower level is more than likely underachieving given how close it is to those cars with FAR less technology. It's just very well thought out suspension engineering and unbelievable ceramic brakes. The ferrari would be nice to take to the "country club" or something LOL. Besides if I wanted 700+ horsepower I can get a hellcat and still have a quarter million left over LOL. Think about it.

Keep in mind though the Z/28 in stock configuration can not really be daily driven, you would need to swap those tires. Only when they are brand new will be be "OK" at best in the rain, give it a few k miles and you'll hydroplane with ease.

I don't really consider it a practical car, I'm not saying its not badass, because if I was loaded I would have one for a track toy to go out and romp on.

For strictly a street car the Z/28 is pretty low on my list, I would rather have the Zl1 or GT500 if my main goal was a street car.
 

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I'd take the Z28 honestly. Difference in insurance must be astronomical between the 2. I'd get the Z28 and a condo for the difference in cost from the F12 and have money left over to bump the horsepower on the Z28 even further . F12 is nice,(I'm italian so I am biased toward italian bred supercars), I actually have a cell phone pic of one I came across on the highway last month in white...nice car, but even though it may be more comfortable amenity wise...I'd still be a nervous wreck about driving it. The Z28, I'd probably feel fine getting in and ripping around in it taking it to the movies supermarket etc etc. Also the Z28 is hardly anything radical for street driving. Compound and size of the tires alone do not account for the Z28's relative performance next to the F12 or Nismo for the reasons I already explained. If anything the Z28 at it's current horsepower level is more than likely underachieving given how close it is to those cars with FAR less technology. It's just very well thought out suspension engineering and unbelievable ceramic brakes. The ferrari would be nice to take to the "country club" or something LOL. Besides if I wanted 700+ horsepower I can get a hellcat and still have a quarter million left over LOL. Think about it.
Personally, the F12 is a far superior car in more than just track times.

exclusivity, panty-dropability, interior, etc. are worth more than any of these cars. someone said ealier the z28 will lose half its value after you sign the dotted line. The f12 will keep most of its value for its life. Unlike some ferraris, the f12 will be a classic.

Its all about personal preference.
 

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Personally, the F12 is a far superior car in more than just track times.

exclusivity, panty-dropability, interior, etc. are worth more than any of these cars. someone said ealier the z28 will lose half its value after you sign the dotted line. The f12 will keep most of its value for its life. Unlike some ferraris, the f12 will be a classic.

Its all about personal preference.
Its like making the argument that a modified Civic or Mustang can easily destroy any of the aforementioned vehicles. You could build a "race" Civic or Mustang that would lay waste in every aspect to a Z/28, but that doesn't make it a better car. Same principal applies when comparing the Z/28 to a GT-R, and especially F12.

I wouldn't even give the Z/28 a second glance parked next to an F12.
 

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Its like making the argument that a modified Civic or Mustang can easily destroy any of the aforementioned vehicles. You could build a "race" Civic or Mustang that would lay waste in every aspect to a Z/28, but that doesn't make it a better car. Same principal applies when comparing the Z/28 to a GT-R, and especially F12.

I wouldn't even give the Z/28 a second glance parked next to an F12.
I'd agree that the F12 is in a totally different league than the Z28 as far as craftsmanship, materials, overall technology and horsepower. I don't agree with the modified civic or mustang analogy, because the Z28, is a production car that can be bought at a dealership and has a warranty, and so are the Nismo GTR and F12 and the Z28 for all intents and purposes can perform just as well as those cars right off the showroom floor with no changes to it. If it comes with a certain tire as factory equipment right off the showroom floor that works with all the other attributes of the car to take it to the level its at now, than that is just icing on the cake. If I had to swap tires to take it on a long multistate trip so be it, small potatoes for that total package. Test reviews have said the ride is firm but not harsh and that the Recaro's are "all day comfortable". The engine in the Z28 isnt even radical at all, and leaves a lot on the table as far as potential horsepower output...very streetable and the LS7 can gain 60+ horsepower with a $500 camshaft swap(assuming the owner did it himself).

The Z28 simply has an amazing well thought out suspension and huge ceramic brakes that those tires can take advantage of. Saying it equals the performance of $300,000 ferrari's *that are in fact derived from race bred technology, whether or not strictly dedicated for track use* because of the compound they use in the tires is not quite accurate; it's the total package from steering, chassis, suspension, brakes, weight reduction in the cars structure, the way the drive train and the engine are all tuned into all of it, all make up the reason for the Z28's performance, not just the make of the tires.

And really, If I want to go cross country in a 700+ horsepower cruiser..I'll get the up comming 204 MPH 4 door Charger with the Hellcat hemi and 8 speed auto, and be a lot more comfortable than I would in a Ferrari. Think about the options that are out there, when comparing these cars. A Z28 for the rips in nice weather, and a HellCat charger or Challenger for the long trips. Having both in the driveway, and still save $200,000+ over 1 ferrari F12. That $300,000 tag is a hell of a price to pay for being fashionable when domestic cars in the U.S are available that can compete on just about every level. But would I want an F12, hell yes! I just don't think I'd ever be comfortable driving it on the highways and byways of the U.S without being a nervous wreck...I think if I had the money it would still be mostly only driven at a track.

And I would also disagree about not giving the Z28 a second glance parked next to a F12, I would absolutley oooogle over the Z28 just as intently. Why? Because I understand what it represents and what it can do relative to that F12 that cost almost a quarter MILLION dollars more.;) And how is this for cool factor?; The Z28 has what is called "Fly Mode" for when the car gets airborne! LOL, the thing is flat out ridiculous, as are many of the cars out these days, just amazing stuff that's out there now.
 

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The GTR will always be a riceburner that will heavily depreciate (maybe not the nismo version) over the coming years. I doubt that the Z/28 will depreciate much if at all. America really can do the unthinkable. On the other hand, Subaru should be ashamed. When the 04' came here it ran with and beat most muscle cars. Fast forward a decade and its the same power output? lol. The saddest part is that the turbo cobalt SS can smoke it (including the 2015) on a track. It beat the evo MR in 2009 by a well margin. I think Subaru needs to pull its pants up and get off the shitter its been on since 2007. My .2
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Why will the Z28 not depreciate? As is, you can buy one under invoice... At the end of the day it's a Camaro, Joe Schmoe down the block has one. My local Chevy dealer has at least 10 sitting on their lot. Hertz and Avis has them too. Just trying to understand. You think the Z28 will go down in history like a MKIV Supra Turbo, Acura NSX, or BMW 1M?
 

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Why will the Z28 not depreciate? As is, you can buy one under invoice... At the end of the day it's a Camaro, Joe Schmoe down the block has one. My local Chevy dealer has at least 10 sitting on their lot. Hertz and Avis has them too. Just trying to understand. You think the Z28 will go down in history like a MKIV Supra Turbo, Acura NSX, or BMW 1M?

Ummm, the Z28 already is a historic automotive ICON..has been since 1969. This newest Z28 is the highest performing Z28 out of all of them....so to collectors of these muscle/pony cars , this one is historic already. It may have a slight depreciation in the first 3 years but it wont continue the value will start to level off and curve up relatively quickly I would think. Under 5 years for example. A 2014 Z28 bought under invoice would be an appreciating investment for sure.

They didnt just take a base camaro and slap on an appearance package like was done in the 70's...this car defines the concept. It will hold value much stronger than the other camaros in the Lineup...and probably appreciate very quickly in the comming years. Ya it's just a "camaro" LOL. And it posted a faster lap time than a $200,000 911 Turbo S. Anyone that owns a 69' Z28 with a cross ram 302 with 4 speed and 4.10 gears can tell you how historic the Z28 Lineage is and how this car is a milestone in that lineage.
 

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Ummm, the Z28 already is a historic automotive ICON..has been since 1969.
The '69 was my favorite of the original body style, but '67 was the first Z-28 and I'll throw those in the icon category too.

One of my friends bought a new '69 with the factory headers (they were sent in the trunk!), cross-ram intake and chambered exhaust. He installed a roller cam, Vette distributor, balanced the internals and upgraded the suspension bushings, sways, etc. That car really set a standard for my teenage mind.
 

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The '69 was my favorite of the original body style, but '67 was the first Z-28 and I'll throw those in the icon category too.

One of my friends bought a new '69 with the factory headers (they were sent in the trunk!), cross-ram intake and chambered exhaust. He installed a roller cam, Vette distributor, balanced the internals and upgraded the suspension bushings, sways, etc. That car really set a standard for my teenage mind.
I agree, 1967 gets overshadowed a bit by the following years of 68' and 69', but I think only because the performance of the car got ramped up so quickly with the big blocks. The Camaro's were competing and winning in factory sponsored drag racing and SCCA racing before 1970! And the things you could find in the trunk or at the counter of the dealership that would turn these things into land missles back then!! :eek: That ERA was amazing for the limited technology that existed relative to the performance the cars were capable of.
 

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The parts manager at our local dealership had wrenched for Donahue. He was a gold mine of info on IROC and the small block Chevy. He basically laid out a progressive mod program for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Not really, that configuration of VIR rewards big hp, which the CLA45 easily outguns the STI in. The STI did ok in the cornering department.

The in car vids of the WRX and STI are now up.



 

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The GTR will always be a riceburner that will heavily depreciate (maybe not the nismo version) over the coming years.
wrong. my 09 is still worth 50 something stock. it listed for 70.

btw, if this is a rice burner, what's an sti? let me help, not nearly as good a riceburner.
 

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Ford Fiesta ST 03:20.4
Volkswagen GTI 03:19.3
Ford Focus ST 03:17.6
Subaru WRX 03:15.5
Lexus IS350 F Sport 03:13.4
Subaru WRX STI 03:10.5
BMW M235i 03:07.0
Cadillac CTS Vsport 03:06.8
Jaguar XFR-S 03:06.7
Mercedes Benz CLA45 AMG 03:05.9
Audi RS7 03:03.0
Porsche Cayman S 03:02.6
Jaguar F-Type R Coupe 03:01.0
BMW M4 03:00.7
Mercedes Benz E63 AMG S Model 03:00.1
Jaguar XKR-S GT 02:59.1
Mercedes Benz SL63 AMG 02:59.1
Audi R8 V10 Plus 02:57.5
Chevy Corvette Stringray 02:53.8
Porsche 911 Turbo S 02:51.2
Chevy Camaro Z/28 02:50.9
Ferrari F12 Berlinetta 02:50.8
Dodge Viper TA 02:49.9
Nissan GTR Nismo 02:49.4
Porsche 918 Spyder 02:43.1

Discuss :D
Watching that video of the kid driving the STI was literally inducing pain LOL. That has to be the worst driving I have ever seen, especially the first 30 seconds. WOW..... It's amazing. He looks like he is having trouble with the [email protected] 1:29 he almost drops into the wrong gear...probably lost 1 second right there. Watching him drive the V.W GTI is equally painful. He looks like some kid that just got his learners permit and is driving the go karts at Disney Land. If he is a professional driver it's pretty bad.:confused:

Sorry Car and Driver. It's cool and all to watch a bunch of guys take some of the highest performing cars available out on a track and bang through the gears, but that is about all I get out of it anymore. Something cool to watch, but the E.T's just can't be taken seriously IMHO.
 

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Not sure if this has already been posted (I did search...didn't see it):

2015 Subaru WRX STI Instrumented Test – Review – Car and Driver

I can't understand how it got a decent LL write-up and then they do a 180 and sorta dump on the car. Some of the article seems a bit off, as well...like an intern wrote it.

It’s outrun by grunting ogres like the Chevrolet Camaro SS and the old Dodge Challenger SRT8. “As quick as an eight-year-old 3-series!” isn’t much of a tagline for your halo performance car.
An STI or any similar car (Evo) has never compared well with the Camaro SS or any SRT8. Why would you even compare an STI to Dodge's GT cars or muscle cars in general? Then the dig about an eight year old 3-series being just as quick. They act like Subaru cares...they haven't cared in YEARS. Why? Because they've never measured their car against most of the cars the article listed (certainly not a BMW 335...not seven years ago).


A decade ago, 300 horsepower was impressive. Now you can buy Jet Skis and four-cylinder Mustangs with more than 300 horsepower. The world moves on.
Hrmm...there are only two other mass-produced turbocharged 4-cyl cars currently being sold that have exceeded 305 HP: the AMG CLA45 and the new Ford Mustang Ecoboost (and that only has 5 HP more). They make like there are tons of manufacturers that have been thrashing blown 4-bangers the last 10 years. Nope.

Using a brutal clutch drop from redline, we’ve flogged the cheaper WRX to 60 mph in the same 4.8 seconds with a six-speed manual transmission. (To be fair, we’ve also seen as high as 5.1 seconds from a manual WRX.) Okay, so the STI isn’t built for the drag strip, but its lack of thrust is made apparent on a road course, too. The 2015 STI’s 3:10.5 Lightning Lap time puts it dead even with the 2007 BMW 335i around VIR’s Grand Course.
They make a comparison to the 2015 WRX, stating that it's just as quick (when banging off the rev limiter the whole 1/4th run). Then they immediately leap to the fact that an STI isn't built for the strip, yet won't mention that the STI was a good bit faster than the WRX during the LL comparison...they instead reference a 2007 BMW 335i and not the WRX that they initially compared with the STI. :rolleyes:

The engine is old...we all knew this years ago. The STI engine hasn't gained any power, ever. We know this. Why all of a sudden think that the STI should be an SRT8 or SS killer? The comparisons made weren't even close to apples-apples. Most articles have an angle or poin to be made...I think I know the point that the author is trying to make, but the author is all over the place in his comparisons...doesn't make much sense and doesn't make for good reading, no matter what brand of car I desire.

The author must live in Colorado and must've smoked a fatass blunt while writing this article.
 

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An STI or any similar car (Evo) has never compared well with the Camaro SS or any SRT8. Why would you even compare an STI to Dodge's GT cars or muscle cars in general? Then the dig about an eight year old 3-series being just as quick. They act like Subaru cares...they haven't cared in YEARS. Why? Because they've never measured their car against the cars that Subaru listed (certainly not a BMW 335...not seven years ago).
The STI in 2004 was much more of a price/performance bargain than it is today relative to lots of other cars. Yeah, he went on too much of a rant about that, but the fact cannot be argued. FHI clearly doesn't care about this, not because they care about the STI, but because they don't. They care about selling a larger and larger number of safe, reliable, and utilitarian AWD cars to the masses. The STI stays around because it gets more reluctant husbands over the thresholds of their dealerships, and as long as they don't have to engineer a whole new STI every few years, it costs them very little to keep it around.

As an example, the 2004 STI was about the same price as, and as fast as or faster than, both the Z28 SS and the Mustang Cobra that were the performance bargains of that time in a straight line while being a much better handling car. That's not true any more. The similarly priced cars from other automakers are faster in a straight line and handle just as well now and the quality gap is smaller too.

I'm not complaining, as there really are more viable options now (and more coming with the Focus RS and Golf R), but the STI no longer stands alone as a bargain at its performance level.
 
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