[Kyle_05_STi]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

That's what I was afraid of :/ you can't tell surface finish just by looking, but do you have any pictures of the sealing surfaces of the heads post-blasting?

 

[BaronOBeefdip]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

Yeah, back on page 40 I posted this:

 

[ben_der]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

Sorry to read that, Gavin. That's somewhat demotivational.

We had a saying back when I was with the Army:
"Nicht zur Strafe, nur zur Übung".

Roughly: "Not as punishment but for practice"

 

[Kyle_05_STi]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

I thought I remembered seeing pictures but I couldn't turn that one up.

It looks like the bead blasting roughed the surface up pretty good. MLS gaskets aren't anywhere near as forgiving as composite when it comes to surface finish, even when they say they'll seal up to 50-60 Ra I'd still tell the machine shop to go as smooth as they can.

You want to end up with something that looks kind of like this (these are 15-20 Ra):

Doesn't have to be a mirror-like finish (you can have a finish that looks smooth but is out of spec for Ra), but most of the time it will end up that way just because of how smooth the finish is.


I know it's going to be hard, but don't beat yourself up over this. Pulling the engine again sucks (trust me, I know) but it goes much faster after you've done it once. You can salvage most of the coolant, and you're not out much else aside from new gaskets and your time. Chalk it up to experience :/

 

[yamahaSHO]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

I tell everyone to resurface their heads on these cars... Did I not tell you?

That said, I have a hard time believing that coolant/water under zero pressure is leaking past the gaskets due to this.

 

[got2boostit2]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

Any pictures of the gasket you used?

SMH.........sorry this happened to you. From my machining days I also strongly suggest machining block and heads EVERY time without question.

 

[BaronOBeefdip]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

Thanks guys. I mean I guess it's good that there's nothing expensive that broke or failed.

Jason, I can't recall if you did or not. It is strange and I have been thinking of this fact over and over. Other than that, it's a torquing issue. But I followed the instructions to the letter. Oh, and flatness, but it was checked with a feeler.

Darryl, back on page 55.

Either way, I blame myself completely. The biggest issue here is just the time it will take to do all this again. I just feel like a dunce.

 

[Kyle_05_STi]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor FINALLY back in the car - almost there!**

That said, I have a hard time believing that coolant/water under zero pressure is leaking past the gaskets due to this.

I do too, and I deal with gaskets/surface finish almost every day. Not from a machining end, but from the conceptual end. I could see improper surface finish causing a leak when up to temp, but you'd think the clamp load of the head bolts with the gaskets would be enough to seal the joint when coolant is just sitting there.

Not sure what else the cause could be unless the heads were way outseide of flatness specs, which Gavin already confirmed they weren't.

 

[got2boostit2]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Page 11 for me -

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/4246775-post542.html

I want to remember the stock head gasket having rubberized material around the cooling ports. But my builds add a light copper spray coating on the gasket as well. Not recommended but works for me.

I'll look back to see to see your gasket manufacturer.

Just clogging this with images for my review.

 

[BaronOBeefdip]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

You must have more posts per page than me. Stock does have the rubber material around each port.

I'm using JE ProSeal per IAG's recommendation. They are completely coated in rubber/silicone.

 

[BaronOBeefdip]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Also, for some reason they never sent me the blueprint specs before(I asked before, but it must've been forgotten), but they did today:

I'm a little concerned that the bearings used field says ACL. The first invoice said ACL, but I made them aware that I preferred to use King. The second invoice was updated to reflect that, however I'm hoping this is just a mistake on the blueprint sheet and that Kings are actually installed...

 

[yamahaSHO]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

And that's why I don't particularly like shops. Only way for you to truly know is taking it apart...

 

[Kyle_05_STi]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

I'm surprised the main clearances vary as much as they do. I'm sure it's fine but I'll be interested to see what your oil pressure is like once you're up and running. Also surprised at how tight the ring gaps are. IIRC Manley recommended like .022" or something like that on the pistons we used in my buddy's engine.

 

[got2boostit2]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Also really wish my situation were different ATM, I'd come me out to help.

 

[got2boostit2]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

You must have more posts per page than me. Stock does have the rubber material around each port.

I'm using JE ProSeal per IAG's recommendation. They are completely coated in rubber/silicone.

OH, Ok...... I'm looking at it on the mini and can't really see the gasket material. All I could make out is the crush ring. I agree with Kyle and Jason's comments. I'm thinking something else is amiss here.

And 50 per page.

 

[user1029]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Here are the specs for most motors they build

IAG built engines, your specs? - NASIOC

 

[got2boostit2]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

They like 1&5 tight eh?

 

[yamahaSHO]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

I messaged someone I sorta know that recently started at IAG, which always leaves me wondering why I do message him afterwards... I sent him a link for the post on the bearings and his response is was that it was "as simple as someone writing the wrong thing". Sound good, right? Well, maybe? He then talks about a 25-person team producing 10 engines a day, but now I'm led to believe the mistake was in the writing?

He then asked if I had anything to do with the build, when I said I am physically not there. I mentioned that I didn't think it should leak sitting on the stand with zero pressure. He said that "the head was basically made into a surface as similar to concrete, thousands of tiny little pores". I don't think he understands concrete pores (which are throughout an entire slab) vs surface dimples in a head, but I degress. It went on but in his defensiveness, where I haven't pointed any fingers, I told him to disregard.

That said, the head absolutely should have been surfaced properly, but with a coated gasket, I personally do not see it as something that should leak in this specific situation since the coating only has to seal the high points of the surface since there aren't actual "pores" from blasting. I say this because it does have me wondering if there is another issue in there, without pointing any fingers. It's worth a look into parts and installation procedures when redoing it with properly surfaced heads and new head gaskets (and why don't you have the stronger head studs on a closed deck block and 1000hp rods?).

 

[BaronOBeefdip]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Thanks for investigating more on this. I am inclined to agree on the zero pressure issue. As for the heads, this will get corrected.

I looked at the specs between the 2000's and the 625+'s and for my power goals, I believed the 2000's would work well. I realize the rest of the motor is overbuilt in that regard. I just wanted to be more on the safe side with the build. However, when thinking about a different turbo(stock location) in the future, I thought I would still be safe with these studs. Am I in the wrong?

As far as parts used and procedures then, I will probably have Rick there with me when installing the heads next time to make sure I do it right and because he's done this before. I did a lot of research to make sure I wasn't ill-informed. All of my sweeps with the torque wrench were smooth, not jittery/bouncy. I used one wrench for the drive to 30 since it's range is 10-75. Then I used a brand new CDI wrench(made by Snap-On) that I purchased solely for this for the drive to 60, 90, and 100(on the center two); it's range is 30-250.

 

[Legba]

Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

I'm surprised the main clearances vary as much as they do. I'm sure it's fine but I'll be interested to see what your oil pressure is like once you're up and running. Also surprised at how tight the ring gaps are. IIRC Manley recommended like .022" or something like that on the pistons we used in my buddy's engine.

If this is a low power build, like you said, probably fine. Used main housings all the same. how's that possible, when they aren't even the same from the factory.

Again, that end gap should be fine on a low power build. Or maybe the gaps are specific or E85? That would make more sense.

He then talks about a 25-person team producing 10 engines a day, but now I'm led to believe the mistake was in the writing?

If the process is well controlled, documented, with the right tools in place, and quality control. They should be as good as any commercially available performance crate engine. At that rate though, a non-perfect process, is going to show itself in short order.

He then asked if I had anything to do with the build, when I said I am physically not there. I mentioned that I didn't think it should leak sitting on the stand with zero pressure. He said that "the head was basically made into a surface as similar to concrete, thousands of tiny little pores". I don't think he understands concrete pores (which are throughout an entire slab) vs surface dimples in a head, but I degress. It went on but in his defensiveness, where I haven't pointed any fingers, I told him to disregard.

That said, the head absolutely should have been surfaced properly, but with a coated gasket, I personally do not see it as something that should leak in this specific situation since the coating only has to seal the high points of the surface since there aren't actual "pores" from blasting. I say this because it does have me wondering if there is another issue in there, without pointing any fingers. It's worth a look into parts and installation procedures when redoing it with properly surfaced heads and new head gaskets (and why don't you have the stronger head studs on a closed deck block and 1000hp rods?).

Agreed. Casting have irregular densities along their surfaces. A blasting process will indent 'soft' spots, but I too would be surprised if it were enough to cause the gasket to not seal.