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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been kicking around the idea of a awic kit for a long time, The unfortunate thing is that noone makes one for our cars.

Being that I am putting together a small product line for the near future, I have decided to proceed on a kit that I can eventually mass produce and sell...

Now, I dont have a big manufacturing facility to make anything crazy in, all I have is connections.

I am going to in effect "Join Forces" with some major players to produce a pair of kits that will be 650 and 1000hp capable. The IC will sit just in front of the engine and come with piping and all.

Piping will of coarse run from turbo to ic inlet on pass side and from ic outlet to intake without passing over turbo for maximum efficiency.

I know Im pretty exited to finally get the ball rolling on this, not sure what everyone else thinks, or if anyone else would be interested enough to want one, but if not I will still be happy to have one on my sti.


All Im looking for is thoughts on this idea, nothing is for sale. Just ideas to get kicked around.

This would be upgradable by simply buying the larger core to go from 650 to 1000hp.
 

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Wouldn't it be much heavier than a air to air intercooler? From what I understand most people don't want to add weight if at all possible, especially up front. :notsure:
 

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I tossed around the idea for quite a while thinking it would be a great solution. I came to the conclusion that adding another step to the process is not very efficient. In essence why would you want to have to use air to cool water to cool air? And add weight in the process. I am toying with the idea of a fusion intercooler (http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62906&highlight=fusion+intercooler), but I am again thinking this is not the best solution. FWIW, it looks like I will be doing a FMIC. At this point I think I would rather find a reasonably priced FMIC than trying to do something that may require tons of money and R&D.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The weight would not be as much as you may think, also understand that the awic is the weapon of choice by most professional drag teams. It simply does the job better. The kit would not add very much weight at all. The main weight addition would be the fluid.

The advantage is the efficiency of the air to water, which is known to be much better than air to air.
 

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The other benefit would be in a situation like autocrossing or drag racing, where for a good portion of the run, there isn't much air going across the intercooler. In that case, an a/w intercooler with its mass of water will continue to cool effectively, even at a standstill.

Don

p.s. Lackskill - whats a fusion intercooler??
 

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Ok, just read the def of a fusion intercooler. Would be great for autocross and drag racing, but would fail miserably roadracing.

For street use it would probably work fine as prolonged high throttle use is pretty difficult to do.

Think of it as an air/water intercooler with no radiator but instead a tank to hold a mass of water.

Don
 

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Chad Block Racing Development made an announcement on Nasioc that they were developing an AWIC and they got a lot of interest. So far theres has only been preproduction pics though so you may have a great jump on the market if you can get it out before they do.
 

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AWICs are a great idea ... for AutoX or Drag Racing. I wouldn't run one for road racing unless the radiator for the water for the AWIC was huge.

My issue with AWICs is the complexity. Yes, I know they aren't complex. I fully understand that. However, in comparison to a FMIC it does have more complexity. You have a pump. The pump has wiring (relay, fuse, etc). The Intercooler requires water hoses that go to the pump. There is also a mini radiator for cooling the water. If done correctly then there will also be a reservoir for the water portion of the system. In addition, some intall fans for the mini water radiator to vent heat during stop and go traffic. These fans will require their own electrical system, temperature switches, etc.

In contrast, a FMIC just has a core and pipes.

t
 

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I just keep coming back to the point that you are still using air to cool the air. You are just adding an intermediate step. Occams Razor...
 

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Sounds like a worthy cause.....I just think you will have a hard time convincing people to go with an AWIC over a FMIC seeing as how the current FMIC do just fine and would probably be cheaper. As Wolfplayer said, the complexity will disgurage some. Most people will never reach power levels that a FMIC can't handle, so why go with some complexe AWIC when the simple FMIC will suffice?
 

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Gimmick said:
The unfortunate thing is that noone makes one for our cars
Not true. There is a company in the UK that makes them but you'll have to get somebody in the UK to buy it for you and ship it, as they don't sell to US customers directly.

The IC will sit just in front of the engine and come with piping and all.
If you're making an AWIC, then why are you putting the IC in front of the engine, necessitating long runs of charge pipe and destroying the entire benefit of the AWIC?
 

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nhluhr said:
Not true. There is a company in the UK that makes them but you'll have to get somebody in the UK to buy it for you and ship it, as they don't sell to US customers directly.

If you're making an AWIC, then why are you putting the IC in front of the engine, necessitating long runs of charge pipe and destroying the entire benefit of the AWIC?
The UK one is $2500 if I'm correct with the pound to dollar conversion. Way too expensive IMHO.

nhluhr is right on the frount mount. Only reason to go with AWIC is to be able to mount it up top with out heat soak issues allowing a quicker turbo spool up. If you are patient, there is someone working on fabricating one.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796049
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Have you ever seen how inefficient the tmic on a subaru is?

Alot of short rows are very detrimental to the systems ability to hold boost and cool efficiently, plus a big IC on top of the engine will heat soak, weather AWIC or not. I am trying to make something very efficient, for people who drag so they dont have heak soak issues between runs, people who auto-x who dont have tremendous airflow diuring runs, and overall to allow more consistent air intake temps for tuning and driving. These are the benefits of a awic, not the location.

Consider that if you go to the track and see the turbo mustangs and camatos out there, these guys run awic's that are located usually inside the cabin.
 

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Gimmick said:
Have you ever seen how inefficient the tmic on a subaru is?

Alot of short rows are very detrimental to the systems ability to hold boost and cool efficiently, plus a big IC on top of the engine will heat soak, weather AWIC or not. I am trying to make something very efficient, for people who drag so they dont have heak soak issues between runs, people who auto-x who dont have tremendous airflow diuring runs, and overall to allow more consistent air intake temps for tuning and driving. These are the benefits of a awic, not the location.

Consider that if you go to the track and see the turbo mustangs and camatos out there, these guys run awic's that are located usually inside the cabin.
AWIC will heat soak but very little compared to a stock IC. The water cooling will keep the temps down dramatically vs an air to air. AWIC isn't needed over a front mount cause if your front mount is large enough you'll have all the efficiency you need so an AWIC is just overkill at that point. Bringing you back to the real reason to go AWIC is to go top mount for quicker spool up.

If I can find the site with the data log of the FMIC vs TMIC vs to mounted AWIC you'll see what I'm talking about. FMIC and AWIC were close in temps and TMIC was drastically higher.
 

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The below is from this site - http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/airwaterinter.htm

Now, the above paragraph is the only time a front mount will out perform an air/water if both are set up properly - at speed . Stop/start, drag racing, towing, 4 x 4 offroad etc. all gain from air/water. The charge air temps. into the engine are also much more stable with logging showing a spread of 35 to 40ºc around town & 35 to 50ºc laden in soft sand, 2nd gear low range, whereas, front mounts have logged 30 to 65ºc around town & 30 to 95ºc in sand. This is with turbo outlet temps of 140ºc as for a top mount, 38ºc c to 116ºc have been recorded ! When you have your foot right into it at slower speeds is when detonation is most likely to happen, air/air intercooling is performing at it's worst efficiency. A very big fan under a top mount will make a fair difference & to a lesser extent, behind a front mount, but none can get near the fact that water 'holds' heat 37 times better than air & a thin radiator at the front of a vehicle cools better than a thick intercooler (air flow), & also has much less effect on the volume of air flow too the engine radiator - very important with some vehicles - eg. 70 series Landcruisers. Take a Toyota MR2 & they have no opposition really. Also, this small heat spread allows safer 'set it on kill' tuneups, if that's your need. It also in a small way, helps engine component longetivity with head gasket, top piston rings & valve seats benefiting most.

Another big plus is is with the length of the inlet track. Some cars have a bunch of pipes to get from the turbo to the front & then back to the throttle body - Subaru WRX springs to mind. It's not so much turbo lag as, filling the volume lag. Sometimes big holes have to be cut in the inner panels for these pipes, so when you go to sell the car, you have to leave the intercooler on as the holes give it away. Two 25mm hoses can be routed to the front so when they are removed, no evidence exits of a performance enhancement being fitted - higher trade in ?, & your air/water setup could be sold for maybe a 50 % return.

Add an engineered ( or even a simple ice bucket) ice water chiller & the results of air/water intercooling over air/air are undeniable. 1 to 1.25 % power increase for every 10 deg. Farenheight decrease, is the possible horsepower gains - note the imperial measurements. If you have an all out engine combination, this can give you the winning edge - safely ! If you are making 600 hp with 150 deg f charge air temps & an air/water setup reduces this to 70 deg. f. - then a power gain of 60 hp is possible. I buy most the turbo magazines from around the world every month & have done for 6 years. Over the past 2 years I notice that 85% of featured new drag cars are fitted with air/water intercooling now. It is the only legal way of getting the charge air temperature down near or below ambient air temperature, running petrol. Methanol as a fuel can get reasonably close, & as an injected additive does a good job, but watch the corrosion. Water sprays can be banned at Dragstrips & some Dyno competitions, although fine for the street.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
nhluhr said:
:lol: good luck with that. It is very gimmicky.
LOL, Dont worry man, Im putting it on my car before anything and Im gonna use it and try it quite a bit before I invest in mass production.

If I dont like it I dont expect anyone else to like it. I am going on what I "think" will be the results, until its final I have nothing but theories to go on.

You can expect to see how it goes every step of the way.
 
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