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I have change my brake fluid and my brake pads?
the answer is yes for brake fluid.
firstly the stock fluid is not high enough temp and you risk boil over
secondly brake fluid absorbs moisture overtime and the boiling point as such will decrease
thirdly you may be surprised, but after a few hundred miles can I can do a bleed and get some bubbles out

the club I go with mandates fluid be FLUSHED (not just bled) within a couple of weeks prior an event for safety purposes.

I'm glad everything worked out but it's a safety precaution to ensure your brakes will have the ability to be at their best. Nothing is as important as being able to stop. You do not want to be going 100mph, slam down on your brakes only to realize you aren't slowing down.

Diff and tranny fluid, I change after first 5k without track time simply because getting all the break-in shavings out is a cheap way to prolong their life but i wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
I can understand that, and I can see how it makes perfect sense to do it. I probably should have. Before the next event I will for sure (had planned to anyway). I just didn't think, in my specific case, it was necessary. And perhaps I got lucky. I can understand, and advocate, that it's wise to change your fluid regardless.
 

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Okay, we need to straighten some stuff out. HarryN, while the last bit of your post is nice and genial, the first part I take issue with. Specifically:



No, "he's" not going to find out. I think you are misunderstanding me. Never once, not once, did I say you shouldn't change your fluids. What I did say is that the car has 5000 miles on it, so I didn't think it was worth changing the fluids. 5000 miles! Come on now, I'm all about taking care of my car (which you have no insight into, by the way - more on this later). But give me a break. 5000 miles of light driving, and I have change my brake fluid and my brake pads? ...And my power steering fluid? ...And my diff fluid?? Whatever. I changed the oil right before I left for the weekend, that was good enough. If the car had more miles on it, then yes, aboslutely I would have changed brake fluid and brake pads. Be realistic. It was my 1st event, probably pushing the car at 50% of it's capabilities if that, and only 5000 miles. No, I don't think I needed to change anything, and I still don't. My next track event, x miles from now, then yes, I will be swapping out pads, flushing the breaks with better fluid, etc. I'll be needing new tires as well. I'll also be pushing the car more.
I know nothing about you, but I have experienced quite a bit of everything else you mentioned. It doesn't matter who it is. We've all been guilty from it, including me. It's nothing to be angry about and I seriously meant no ill-will!

But again, I was only trying to help. That's all. Racing is a very expensive hobby. And the better you get at it, the less you spend (well in repairing damages anyway, or buying mods :lol:). But as far as fluid changes, this is an optional must. I say optional must since it is up to you if you want to go through prepping your car prior to a race for some insurance that your engine and car will be performing properly and comfortably with fresh fluids.


Somehow you don't know anything about me. Please do not presume to know anything about me, my motivation, what went down at the track, or what my instructor thought. That's very arrogant and quite frankly I don't appreciate it. I quite simply expressed pleasure at passing some folks - god strike me down for enjoying that. Never once, again, did I say that was my focus. In fact, it was very much NOT my focus. Remember, we talked about that before my sessions...oh, wait, no we didn't. Because you weren't there... Or know what I was focusing on. But thanks for voicing your opinion anyway.

So please stop with the assumptions about my thoughts or motivations. If you were to ask my instructor what my focus was, I am not in the least bit ashamed, embarassed or worried about what he will say. I know what I was focused on. As does he. As you do not. So while I enjoy some other posts of yours, this one not so much. And the mods I mentioned were all suspension based, and bigger brakes. Jesus, what's wrong with that?!? It's not like I was screaming for more power.

At the end of the day, I really enjoyed my sessions, and I'll be doing more, despite you shaking your head at poor misguided me.
OK, well, I can see you're a bit sensitive and I was only ribbing you about focusing on passing people. I thought the smiley face was going to give it away. Whatever.

I am glad you enjoyed your sessions, but at least give it a few more attempts before you go with something like bigger brakes. The anti-sway bars and shocks I can definitely see. But as far as brakes, go with HP+ pads and SS braided lines first and see how it works. You're going to be VERY surprised. :) Also, try thinking about the SPT strut tower brace or SPT under-chassis brace. I definitely gained plenty more steering after both items were installed. But that is just me.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
OK, well, I can see you're a bit sensitive and I was only ribbing you about focusing on passing people. I thought the smiley face was going to give it away. Whatever.

I am glad you enjoyed your sessions, but at least give it a few more attempts before you go with something like bigger brakes. The anti-sway bars and shocks I can definitely see. But as far as brakes, go with HP+ pads and SS braided lines first and see how it works. You're going to be VERY surprised. :) Also, try thinking about the SPT strut tower brace or SPT under-chassis brace. I definitely gained plenty more steering after both items were installed. But that is just me.
I apologize if I come off overly sensative about it, but I specifically went into this event with the intention of focusing on learning to drive and nothing else, and your comment regarding you thinking I went for the wrong reasons struck a nerve with me, perhaps because I was specifically not going for those reasons. Perhaps I overreacted to your comment, but there is a category of car owner/racer (which I'm not going to go into here) that I refuse to be a part of or associated with, and your comment was too close to claiming you knew I was in that category. So again, sorry if I came over too hard, but I did not want to let it just ride, as that stuff sticks.

Regarding the bigger brakes, I think you are right, I'll focus on pads and SS lines first. How are the HP+ on the street? Are they tolerable? I'm still a far way from being good, so better pads than stock will be great but they probably don't need to be full-race ones. And I was thinking about changing out some of the suspension bushings, perhaps the sway bars, I'm not sure how much I was leaning in the corners, and for sure the underbrace.
 

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How are the HP+ on the street? Are they tolerable? I'm still a far way from being good, so better pads than stock will be great but they probably don't need to be full-race ones. And I was thinking about changing out some of the suspension bushings, perhaps the sway bars, I'm not sure how much I was leaning in the corners, and for sure the underbrace.
HP+ are the top street pad for Hawk, not a race pad. Hawk has plenty of pads more aggressive. HP+ are noisier and dirtier than most OEM pads and tamer pads, but not nearly as bad as most race pads. If you start to get some squeal on the street, you can usually get rid of it with a few hard stops (just check your mirrors before you collect anyone behind you). What I'm not sure about is how much of an upgrade the HP+ will be, since I heard such good things about the stock pads in the 2011. They may end up being fairly comparable, but I also don't think you need new pads yet unless you start adding a good bit of grip.

If you are just stepping up to more heat-tolerant tires for the next event, you might still want to try your stock pads again, this time with fresh DOT-4. Just be sure to check how much pad you have left before the event, and check again after each session (wear may start to accelerate suddenly if you get out of the pads' operating temp range). If the event you are running doesn't offer trackside services with brake pads available (not a lot do), you might want to buy your next set of pads to have them ready if you are anywhere near halfway on your current pad life. just be sure to bring really heat-resistant gloves if you end up having to change your pads at the track after running a couple sessions.

but, if your tires were holding up fine for the first event, stick with them. The less sticky your tires, the slower a pace you can go to find the limit. Better tires can really mask bad driving habits, even from the instructor in the seat next to you. if you can learn on slower tires at the limit, you should hopefully correct any bad technique before it becomes habit.

IMO, you shouldn't be messing with spring or damping rates yet, so I wouldn't bother with sways yet. You have a decent stock suspension that is less understeery than any STi before it. And I assure you that even on street tires, you can still get plenty of dive and roll on a car that is uncomfortably stiff on the street. the amount you experienced in your first event is probably far less than the amount of roll you will experience once you start to get the feel of it. That said, bracing and bushings will help the suspension you have react more quickly, which will be a benefit to you now, since it will help you feel the car's reactions to your inputs more. Just be wary of poly bushings in spinny parts. Unless you get the graphite-impregnated poly (TiC is one place that carries them) for bushings that have to slide inside, they require frequent re-greasing. For track duty, I've been told you really should grease them before each event because under the extreme conditions they can see on track, the poly can stick and cause the normally spinny parts to seize. If that happens, any number of catastrophes can occur.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
HP+ are the top street pad for Hawk, not a race pad. Hawk has plenty of pads more aggressive. HP+ are noisier and dirtier than most OEM pads and tamer pads, but not nearly as bad as most race pads. If you start to get some squeal on the street, you can usually get rid of it with a few hard stops (just check your mirrors before you collect anyone behind you). What I'm not sure about is how much of an upgrade the HP+ will be, since I heard such good things about the stock pads in the 2011. They may end up being fairly comparable, but I also don't think you need new pads yet unless you start adding a good bit of grip.
Hmm, perhaps I'll try the tires first. My next event won't be for several months, so I might just look into getting new pads and be done with it. For what it's worth, at the pace I was going, the breaks felt pretty good. And I don't think I experienced fade too much. I'm not sure what I am looking for, but when I needed to stop/slow down, the car did. I wasn't pressing all the way to the floor.

If you are just stepping up to more heat-tolerant tires for the next event, you might still want to try your stock pads again, this time with fresh DOT-4.
Tires will be interesting. I have the stock Dunlop Sport 600 on there now, again 5000 miles, and I can see the wear bars are getting close. I did a lot of scrubbing on them.

IMO, you shouldn't be messing with spring or damping rates yet, so I wouldn't bother with sways yet. You have a decent stock suspension that is less understeery than any STi before it. And I assure you that even on street tires, you can still get plenty of dive and roll on a car that is uncomfortably stiff on the street. the amount you experienced in your first event is probably far less than the amount of roll you will experience once you start to get the feel of it. That said, bracing and bushings will help the suspension you have react more quickly, which will be a benefit to you now, since it will help you feel the car's reactions to your inputs more. Just be wary of poly bushings in spinny parts. Unless you get the graphite-impregnated poly (TiC is one place that carries them) for bushings that have to slide inside, they require frequent re-greasing. For track duty, I've been told you really should grease them before each event because under the extreme conditions they can see on track, the poly can stick and cause the normally spinny parts to seize. If that happens, any number of catastrophes can occur.
Thanks for the advice, maybe I'll just stick with brakes pads, new fluid and tires for the next event. I really don't want to go throwing money at something that I don't really need yet.
 

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I agree that fluids should be changed, since they are cheap insurance, especially brake fluid and engine oil. depending on the climate or age of the coolant (or if there are engine mods), coolant may be important, too (although going straight to plain water + wetter is probably more than most people need to do on their street car, let alone for their first event).
Perhaps the water and water wetter was a bit over the top, but if you start leaking fluid, or God forbid, you crash, you are doing others a favor by not spilling such a slick liquid on the track. But it is not recommended for daily driving.
When the heat index is >100 deg & there is100% relative humidity no ones car is safe from overheating. Not on public hwys, the track, or idling in the Taco Bell drive through. In addition to this, the GRs have cooling issues bc of their weak sauce fans. It is difficult to see a tiny but of oil in glycol, but ANY oil will bead up & stick out like a sore thumb in wetter. I try to be eco-friendly where I can. I got rid of my catalytic converters, but i stopped using glycol. Last but not least, watter wetter cost HALF as much as glycol, and it makes your radiator efficiency go up an obscene amount.

Overkill is how I deal with risk and uncertainty, but I don't see how any reasonable person can read the paragraph above and saying,"Yea...That sounds great, but I'm gonna have to pass." You can't poison strays with it, but it does everything else better. I run straight deionized water + redline wetter about 9 months out of the year. If I lived in Florida, that's what I would run it all the time. You guys can keep the glycol.

As far as experiencing brake fade as a beginner, that's a bit dangerous in my opinion, especially for someone who is green. I equate that to instructors that tell you to run a quart low on a wet sump system. I think as someone gets more experienced with their car's limits would be better to experience brake fade than a pure green. Just my opinion.

I think experiencing brake fade is like losing your virginity. If you let nature take it's course, you'll experience it when you're ready. I've only gotten to 3rd base with my brakes.

Perhaps in my post about passing folks I worded things wrong. It was after the day was over, and I was excited. I was horrible - but not as horrible as I thought I was going to be, and I was stoked about that.

These words here that T-dub wrote are more in my line with my thoughts, if not what I actually typed. Thanks, T-dub for posting this. This is where I was. I know I suck. I've never done it before, of course I suck. All the people in my group sucked. That's why we were there, to get better. Having said that, I still enjoyed reeling some guys in. And it wasn't any focus on passing that allowed me to do that, it was my focus on driving proper that allowed me to do that. Heh, and the car, there's a lot to be said for the car :)
There is nothing to be said for the car. A really good driver could take either one of us in a ford fiesta. You won't learn jack, or get any better if the car is always bailing you out. I can understand it was your first time, but that KILLS your ability to learn. If you are uncomfortable with the speed...slow down. Traction control wasn't an option for me. I also have open diffs instead of LSDs. I assure you that passing someone is much more satisfying when you know it was all you.
 

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When the heat index is >100 deg & there is100% relative humidity no ones car is safe from overheating. Not on public hwys, the track, or idling in the Taco Bell drive through. In addition to this, the GRs have cooling issues bc of their weak sauce fans. It is difficult to see a tiny but of oil in glycol, but ANY oil will bead up & stick out like a sore thumb in wetter. I try to be eco-friendly where I can. I got rid of my catalytic converters, but i stopped using glycol. Last but not least, watter wetter cost HALF as much as glycol, and it makes your radiator efficiency go up an obscene amount.

Overkill is how I deal with risk and uncertainty, but I don't see how any reasonable person can read the paragraph above and saying,"Yea...That sounds great, but I'm gonna have to pass." You can't poison strays with it, but it does everything else better. I run straight deionized water + redline wetter about 9 months out of the year. If I lived in Florida, that's what I would run it all the time. You guys can keep the glycol.
I hear what you're saying, but up here where I live, I go to track days that I wouldn't make it to without glycol (try early April events at Lime Rock), since my STi does both DD and track duty. granted, in the july/august events we run, water + wetter would be great, but watching the water temps has always been sufficient for me to keep from overheating. I have only done one track day up here where I had to come off track because my water temps were just spiking too high for my comfort (224F), and that was on 50/50 before I started using 60/40 plus wetter. even with water + wetter, you still have to make sure your car isn't overheating by checking the gauges, and my gauge told me I didn't need to use different coolant in the summer and the winter in that car.
 

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I hear what you're saying, but up here where I live, I go to track days that I wouldn't make it to without glycol (try early April events at Lime Rock), since my STi does both DD and track duty. granted, in the july/august events we run, water + wetter would be great, but watching the water temps has always been sufficient for me to keep from overheating. I have only done one track day up here where I had to come off track because my water temps were just spiking too high for my comfort (224F), and that was on 50/50 before I started using 60/40 plus wetter. even with water + wetter, you still have to make sure your car isn't overheating by checking the gauges, and my gauge told me I didn't need to use different coolant in the summer and the winter in that car.
Geography, setup & driver dictate what is necessary. Everybody has to decide for themselves what is optimal. If you have to worry about your coolant freezing, then overheating is not usually a top concern. However, think about this: if something happens to your car during a session, how fast do you think your temps could go up? I'm not able to keep as close an eye on my gauges as I'd like, bc my brain is maxed out trying to keep up with everything else going on. If my radiator works 30% better, that gives me more time to notice any problems & helps get the car cooled down faster once I notice.

How would I have ended up if I had been on the track the time I blew by a quart of oil in 8 minutes instead of at an AX? Walking would be my guess. Most people use wetter to cure overheating issues. I do to AVOID having little problems turn into a new motor. Thats just how I roll.
 

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I hear what you're saying, but up here where I live, I go to track days that I wouldn't make it to without glycol (try early April events at Lime Rock), since my STi does both DD and track duty. granted, in the july/august events we run, water + wetter would be great, but watching the water temps has always been sufficient for me to keep from overheating. I have only done one track day up here where I had to come off track because my water temps were just spiking too high for my comfort (224F), and that was on 50/50 before I started using 60/40 plus wetter. even with water + wetter, you still have to make sure your car isn't overheating by checking the gauges, and my gauge told me I didn't need to use different coolant in the summer and the winter in that car.
Stig, are you using 60/40 Glycol:Water + Wetter??? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
 

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Stig, are you using 60/40 Glycol:Water + Wetter??? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
60% water and 40% anti-freeze, which lets me safely leave my car out in -10 to -20F when I head north a few times each winter. I also add a bottle of wetter, which definitely improved the reaction time of my cooling system significantly. Definitely not rocking 60% glycol...that's almost the ideal Alaskan winter blend!
 

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60% water and 40% anti-freeze, which lets me safely leave my car out in -10 to -20F when I head north a few times each winter. I also add a bottle of wetter, which definitely improved the reaction time of my cooling system significantly. Definitely not rocking 60% glycol...that's almost the ideal Alaskan winter blend!
Oh wow... I thought the Wetter gets all crazy-go-nuts when you mix it with glycol. I read on some BMW and VW forums that the glycol reacts violently with Redline's Waterwetter, some cases of foaming occurring.

Do you flush the system often with this Water to glycol content ratio? Or do you use the same interval as the Subaru recommended flushing intervals?

Sorry if I sound a bit hyper here, but this is something new I am learning here! :lol:
 

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I never make it to the regular interval before some new part forces me to drain the coolant :lol: otherwise, I just change it once per track season, but I haven't used this particular blend for very long.

I spent a long time searching for graphs showing the temperature characteristics of different coolant blends before deciding that the optimal blend for me was 60/40. I never did find one showing the cooling ability, but I eventually found a graph of the freezing points from some little town's website in northern alaska where people tended to freeze their cooling systems by running straight anti-freeze, thinking that was the best way to prevent freezing after 50/50 wasn't enough. but straight glycol actually freezes above 0F (close to 32F, IIRC), and the best possible mixture for preventing freezing is around 67% glycol. I just found a point along the graph that was easy to mix and would be more freeze protection than I should need, but still had more water than 50/50.

as for the wetter, I have never heard of that issue, so it was not a concern. Redline specifically says it is safe to use with any coolant, so I never thought twice about it. I have never had little bubbles form in the system after its been burped.
Red Line Synthetic Oil - WaterWetter® Coolant Additives - WaterWetter®
"Compatible with new or used antifreeze (including DEX-COOLTM and long-life versions) to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems."
 

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Oh wow... I thought the Wetter gets all crazy-go-nuts when you mix it with glycol. I read on some BMW and VW forums that the glycol reacts violently with Redline's Waterwetter, some cases of foaming occurring.

Do you flush the system often with this Water to glycol content ratio? Or do you use the same interval as the Subaru recommended flushing intervals?

Sorry if I sound a bit hyper here, but this is something new I am learning here! :lol:
Redlines wetter is perfectly fine with any mixture of ethylene/propylene glycol and/or water. What it's NOT safe to use with it is very hard water. If deionized water isn't easy to find, sometimes I use distilled, but I never use just filtered water. I guarantee you someone on the BMW/VW board used tap water. I flush mine 2 times a year. If you have cold temps then ideally you will run the same mix year round. I started out running 60/40 & it worked way better than 50/50 by itself.
 
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