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understood, but then that is old, very very old . . . . would make me wonder if Vivid is alive . . .
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Ok ok ok. I'm going rotated. I have a whole original motor when I swap it out woth the iag so worse come to worse I do a complete engine swap.to pass any inspections.

So let's say I've purchased the iag 950 or tuff block. Tuff block has the tri beam rods. I match the bottom end with my built heads pretty much IAG stage 5 spec heads. Do I go kelford 272 cams vs gsc 272? Apparently the 272 gsc are more aggressive

Turbo undecided???

Power goals hhmmmmmm 530whp + (400kw+)
 
Ok ok ok. I'm going rotated. I have a whole original motor when I swap it out woth the iag so worse come to worse I do a complete engine swap.to pass any inspections.

So let's say I've purchased the iag 950 or tuff block. Tuff block has the tri beam rods. I match the bottom end with my built heads pretty much IAG stage 5 spec heads. Do I go kelford 272 cams vs gsc 272? Apparently the 272 gsc are more aggressive

Turbo undecided???

Power goals hhmmmmmm 530whp + (400kw+)
I think the stage 5 built heads are going to have a powerband that’s a bit to the right regardless-rotated will help, cam selection will help, but you are likely going to need to rev it a bit high to really hit the efficiency range of heavily ported heads-which you can do because iirc the heads (the valvesprings and retainers in particular) are one of the big blockers for that. If you’re locked into the heads that will kind of determine the rest of your build I think. Being able to fully engine swap if you get caught might be your best bet because you might not want to drive a car with those heads and appropriate cams without also having enough turbo to feed them air at high engine speeds.
 
^^that


not sure why you are so set on cams, as it's really not necessary and wont last as long since your car is a daily. a built shortblock, valve/spring, headstuds, and a rotated gtx3071r gen2 or an efr7163 w/sxe compressor housing will quite literally hit the top of your stated goal of 535whp.

normally i wouldnt push as hard, but you say the car is a daily, oem cams WILL last longer.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Ok understand. Let me add 2 more things. When I mean stage 5 heads my heads have the same running gear as the iag stage 5 heads minus the cnc machining. The intake tube will be cleaned up and smoothed out but won't be cnc machined.

I've been told by multiple shops here I. Australia cams are necessary, I've also been told that most are running the kwlford 272 cams to achieve the 535hp. Not sure why it's so different for you guys in America?

Would it be better suited that I go for the 264/260 kelford?

 
not sure what is different in Australia, or why they are saying cams are necessary. but i know of a number of guys making 535 without aftermarket cams. pretty sure @killerbmotorsport has done it on their shop cars. snail performance markos ran a few years back in gridlife street mod without it (i think his kill map was actually like 570whp) and there are a few local guys who have made over 500 with just upgraded valves/springs (the weak point for higher boost levels in the heads).
 
2020 STi Dual AVCS

here is an exmaple of a friends car running kelford 272 cams paird with aeroflow 6262 on e85

540WHP

Im not suggesting the stock cams wont do it but if im going to pair my heads to the IAG950 block i dont see why i would do my heads while im there including cams

Not sure if he is running just beehive springs or dual conical


Image
 
The folks over on nasioc have good things say about cams and some additional lift+duration likely will help your power goals. The main reason folks mostly don’t do them is cost and the fact that they’re not really drop-in. It’s just that, like headwork, cams are a really easy place to lose low-end and going for the “best and biggest” possible on cams/headwork means high rpm power at the expense of low-end.

The tradeoff is more stark with cams and headwork than with almost anything else except turbo sizing.

Going for the max possible with cams and headwork is like going with independent throttle bodies on a naturally aspirated motor-it’ll be fast and really cool but you should probably be very sure that’s what you want and plan your build around it.

Not saying you shouldn’t do cams or porting, just that you could do some pocket porting and some mild cams and reach your power goals just fine without losing as much low-end compared to max lift/duration cams and an intensive porting job. Though yeah, enough valvespring to keep revving a bit higher than stock is rarely a bad idea
 
Do Subarus have oiling issues to be concerned about regardless of heads and cams - we do see far more than our share of spun bearings . . . I don't have the facts but . . .

Anyway Karlot. Were arguing the wrong way :) :) :)

He's got the block, and the heads, the funds and unlimited time for engine swaps (despite the mention of a daily.) so despite a whole crate of necessary parts have not been mentioned and discussed keep the heads and block and build for 600AWPH minimum!

See USER1029 's excellent detailed thread. No need to ask or discuss. Just a couple hundred posts to read . . .
 
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Discussion starter · #31 ·
Ok so heads haven't been built yet.

Are we saying that for my power goals which for a DD I would say 500whp all I need to do is get the heads refreshed and run stock cams?

I'll take your guys advise.

Should I go 1mm oversize Intake and standard exhaust size, beehive valve springs, stock cams.

Buy an original new block and put some forged pistons and rods in it with some arp2000 + 625?

Is that a better combo for my goals?
 
You don't truly need oversized valves. Certainly not at your level. The place I got my heads done doesn't do +1mm valves at all and they've made heads for 1200+ whp cars doing 7s in the quarter mile. It has something to do with how much little material there is in the valve seats after you open them up for the larger valves. The less material there the less the heat can dissipate from the valves which can lead to issues. Especially on a daily driven car.

Here's a video of them explaining everything

A lot of places do use them though. But if you aren't going full bore on port work you probably don't need them. Some quality valves, springs and retainers parts wise, a good valve job, cleaning up any of the casting flash left in the intake/exhaust runners as well as a pocket port (opening up, reshaping and smoothing out the bowls underneath the valve) is easily capable of doing well over the power you're looking for. Doing all this instead of just running stock heads with upgraded parts will allow you to make the power easier and most likely at less boost than on untouched heads. It will also give you room to grow.

I won't say don't do cams at all. As I said before I have bc 272's in my daily driver. Stock cams would probably last longer. But I'm not looking for this built engine to last 100k+ miles either. I went with the smallest upgraded cam I could which will allow me room to grow down the road when I eventually upgrade turbos. You can't just swap cams with the motor in place on these cars. I'm not interested in having to pull the motor later to do cams so I did it to begin with even though my head builder recommended against it for the power (450 whp) I was originally shooting for. They recommended not doing cams until 500 whp minimum for a street car. They outright said it would be more fun to drive with stock cams. In the end I ended up pushing for more power out of the gate and surpassed the minimum power they recommended for doing cams.

When you're building your car you need to look at all the parts together and match things so that the end result will give you the kind of power and drivability you want from the car. Just throwing in the biggest stuff you can find is almost never the right thing to do unless you're making a Dyno queen or a drag car. How you drive a drag car is usually very different from how you want to drive a daily driven street car. It doesn't matter if you don't make any power until 5k rpms in a race car because you'll never be below that rpm level. On a street car you don't want the car to not be able to get out of its own way or have any throttle response or power in the lower to mid range of the rpms. This is generally where you will spend the majority of your time when driving.

Turbo 4 cylinders won't make power from low rpms to high rpms. You need to figure out where you want the power and response to be and then pick your parts to match that goal. 3k rpms of solid power is a pretty decent window for a turbo 4 to have. 3500 rpms if you're really lucky. Figure out what range you want the power and work with your builder to create a car that does what you have in mind.

Finally I'm a big fan of over building for the power you're going to make. Not only will the engine take the abuse longer generally but it will also give you room to grow later without having to spend a fortune to upgrade your engine, fuel system, etc later. If you want 500 whp now and build an engine that's good for 550 whp you're going to be putting more of a strain on the engine with that power as compared to an engine built for 700 whp.
 
I'm aiming for 550whp
What everyone here is saying isn't getting through to you. How much power a car makes and where it makes the power are 2 totally separate issues. If you want that power at 8k+ rpms it's going to be slower than your average 100 hp sohc 80's honda until 4.5k rpms. If you want that power in the mid range you'll have decent power in the low range for daily driving but it will fall on it's face in the upper rpms.

You're tryin got build a turbocharged 4 cylinder. Without throwing 10's of thousands of dollars it it for things like a custom twin charged or compound turbo set up you won't make power in all areas of the rev range. These aren't newer ford v8's that will make plenty of tq right off idle for cruising around town so you never have to downshift to accelerate yet still have the ability to make hp all the way until 8k rpms. You need to decide WHERE you want the power before you can pick the parts to match your goals.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but you come off as a kid with a dream that he doesn't actually understand. If you are a kid who's building his first fast car then you can probably deal with a car that has absolutely no power under the curve and is shit to drive around normally but makes plenty of peaky power in a small rpm range so it can go fast when you really run out the gears and engine. Many of us have done it when we didn't know any better and had fun doing so.
 
Two things:

1) I have a different description of the above issue. An STI has a small engine. It's never going to big displacement torque - ever, no matter what you do. General as you add power the higher the power band starts. In smaller builds this is made up for because you extend the high end of the power band more than you loose at the lower end, So, you gain powerband width. When the powerband ends at redline, adding power still rises the low end, but the top end can rise no more and power band width narrows. Raising the red line can compensate, and it can lower the boost required to achieve a power goal. But, head work is required and a built block advisable. . . . It's sort of the last thing you do, due to cost and for reliability and unless you are shooting for a lot of power.

2) My real issues is the desired to look stock. There has been no mention all the other mods you need to be in the high power realm that requires head work. First off is a FMIC, You not going to make that look stock or just pull it out so easily. You need to mod the car, not just the engine. If your not going FMIC, you should think twice before doing head work . . .
 
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Two things:

1) I have a different description of the above issue. An STI has a small engine. It's never going to big displacement torque - ever, no matter what you do. General as you add power the higher the power band starts. In smaller builds this is made up for because you extend the high end of the power band more than you loose at the lower end, So, you gain powerband width. When the powerband ends at redline, adding power still rises the low end, but the top end can rise no more and power band width narrows. Raising the red line can compensate, and it can lower the boost required to achieve a power goal. But, head work is required and a built block advisable. . . . It's sort of the last thing you do, due to cost and for reliability and unless you are shooting for a lot of power.

2) My real issues is the desired to look stock. There has been no mention all the other mods you need to be in the high power realm that requires head work. First off is a FMIC, You not going to make that look stock or just pull it out so easily. You need to mod the car, not just the engine. If your not going FMIC, you should think twice before doing head work . . .

I'm going to disagree on the tq thing. these cars have a pretty big displacement for a 4 cyl. i'm personally making 500 wtq @ 4k rpms. Stock turbo sti's make 400+ wtq in the lower 3k rpms and higher power guys make 650+ wtq in the mid 4k-early 5k range. It's not off idle tq like a v8. But its a damn impressive amount regardless. Especially in a 4 cyl.

I really think this guy needs to either learn the hard way like most of us did or find a builder with a stellar rep that he trusts and just follow their advice while hoping it turns out like he wants it too. I just don't get the impression he really understands what we're trying to explain to him. Before I experienced a car that was absolutely gutless before 4k but god damn frightening afterwards and then something else with great street manners i didn't get it either.
 
these cars have a pretty big displacement for a 4 cyl. . . . in the lower 3k rpms and . . . [more] . . . wtq in the mid 4k-early 5k range. It's not off idle tq like a v8.
But that is exactly what US kids compare them too . . . . and 3300 up is not nearly near idle . . but for "us" its just what we expect and we use our transmissions accordingly . . .
 
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Discussion starter · #38 ·
I appreciate all the constructive critism and no offence is been taken. It is a learning curve and I want to do it right the first time. I want a reliable quick street car that I can put my wife and 3 kids in and drive for 500km.

It's going to be a daily driver I've got 20000km on a 2020 sti.

My current mods are blouch 2.5xtr 8cm, I will change the housing to 10cm when build is done. 38mm EWG with 15psi spring in it, 3 port boost controller, idx 1050cc, process west TMIC, IAG AOS, Cobb SF intake tuned on cobb platform. Making 285kw on e85 380hp.

I want power from 3500rpm to 6800rpm. I want it to be quick around the street and fun car to drive. I will occasionally go drag racing or roll racing.

Maybe my rotated dream is just a dream and not realistic for my use at this point in time
 
That turbo you have is capable of a fair bit more than it's currently making. People can do 450 whp with a dom 1.5 on ethanol. Is it possible to get a retune done and up the power with your current setup?

A turbo capable of 550 whp isn't going to make full boost by 3500 rpms. But that's not the same as not making any boost. That will be in the area where things start to get really fun. My car is in the neighborhood of what you've been asking about. 543/503 at the wheels on ethanol and 475/420 on pump on my local heartbreaker mustang dyno. Mildly ported built heads, small cams, larger intake manifold, rotated turbo, iag closed deck short block, etc. And it's daily driven . I hit full spool by 4k rpms in 4th and by about 6500 rpms the turbo is running out of steam and the power starts dropping off a bit. By 7k it's really nose diving fast. But it can make positive pressure starting about 2k rpms. And by 3k it's able to accelerate quickly and has good throttle response. Anything past 4k rpms it takes a heartbeat from when the peddle goes down until it's making 29-30 psi.

It's a really fun street car. Usable power and and throttle response are great for the most part. I'm actually looking at going up a size or two in turbos because I've gotten used to it and I want the car to scare me again. I've pulled almost all the power out of my current turbo so going bigger is the only fix.

If what I'm describing sounds like something you'd like for yourself you can definitely do it. Karlot likes to recommend a gen 2 Garret 3071 gtx. It will match the response and spool of my turbo though it might not make quite as much power. From testing done by killerb the larger 3576 will make the same power at the same rpms as the 3071 but will keep building power past where the 3071 runs out of steam. Even though it's still spooling up where the 3071 is running peak boost. Id consider one of them or maybe one of the newer g30-660's which is the newest revision of the 3071.

Really consider if a built Subaru is the best choice for your only car. I'm not suggesting not too here. As I did exactly that. I'm lucky enough to have access to a spare family car when mine needs some work. And its happened fairly often over the last 3 years. The more power you pull from the car the less reliable it will tend to be. Generally speaking at least. Some people just have great luck. You're going to have a bunch of maintenance that needs to be doing if you plan on keeping the car problem free. When you run ethanol all the time you should be changing your oil more often than the factory 3k miles. I do every 2k or 3 months. Whichever comes first.

You're also going to have some quirks to deal with if you run ethanol most of the time. Things like making sure the oil gets up to temp every time you drive the car. If you don't moisture from the fuel will get into the oil and cause a gunk to build up which can and will hurt your engine. If you do a built motor you're going to have to plan your drives ahead. There won't be any more just hoping in the car and running to the store and back in 5 minutes.

Understand that there are trade offs in order to make the kind of power you're asking about. Some are in time like the things I just mentioned. Some in money with all the maintenance. And then some of it is going to be dealing with the car when something is wrong and you have to bring it to a shop that specializes in these cars if you can't do the work yourself. Which frequently takes longer than if you were able to bring your car to just any good mechanic. This isn't even including deal with the cat inspector Nazis Australia is famous for.

In your situation with you and your family depending on the car every day it's something to really consider. Picking up a cheap daily driver first and then modifying the car might not be a bad idea. If I were on your situation, or if I didn't have almost immediate access to a car to borrow id have bought a cheap reliable beater before I modded my car to the level it is now.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
We have the might 2013 Honda crv MANUAL as the other family car. I work for harley davidson so have access to bikes for the Sumner.

The tuners in Australia all limit torque on stock motors to 400wtq with my combination for safety on e85. We could really get 400hp but they play it safe.

I'm a car mechanic by trade so extra oil changes etc no a problem.

I purchased a spare set of w25 heads so I can build motor in no rush. In other words of it takes 12 months so be it. I don't ever see myself with more than 550whp.

I think for me and my situation I build a closed deck motor with a shop with some mild heads work so the motor is capable of 550hp. Whether I run my Dom 2.5xtr or go rotated when it goes in the car will see

Back to the original question and understanding my build. What do I do woth the heads?
 
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