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But the real question is, "why take the risk at all?" I hate having to worry if I have enough gas to last the day, there is always the potential problem where you can't get to a gas station soon enough, or when I'm rushed to get somewhere and I notice that I'm at 1/8th of a tank.
It's just as easy to keep the top half full as the bottom half.
 
Sinister...that was some constructive feedback, until you came back with the owned comment. I never said it was bad below a 1/3 of a tank either...I said that was conservative, but that consistently running it below 3 gallons (ie. when the light is on and below) can over a prolonged period of time can cause an early degredation of the pump. Dr. Garth Hobson from the Mechnical and Astro. Engineering department at the Naval Postgraduate School (also, and alum from Penn State, where I got my Bach of Science degree) verified today that the intrinsic wear and tear on both electrical and mechanical pumps (the latter being in carbourated cars vice fuel injected ones) can be from numerous factors, not one of which more important than another perse. His exact words were "there are numerous variables that can cause detonation of a pressure-dependent system, but all of these variables must act directly against pressure in order to cause failure."

He said that in his experience, the most common cause for most pumps (not just auto fuel pumps, but was referring to in aero-turbines) failing is due to contaminents in the system that cause a reduction in pressure--when the flux of fuel through the filter and into the pump decreases), This WILL be more concentrated at the bottom of an empty tank vs. a full tank. While the car is moving, gas (a fluid) is constantly mixing. So, the more fuel you have, the lower the molarity or mass percentage of contaminents. On the flip side, the less fuel, the higher the molarity.

I am glad I gave you a laugh at my expense. As for the drop clutching, I suppose I can afford it now...I got lucky I guess. I won't dare search through all of your posts--I will leave that to the Democrats...to try and dig up dirt. I will instead do more productive things like try to protect the citizens of our nation (which sometimes surprise the hell out of me, and make me think twice).
 
I won't justify AFSTIGUY's comments or any of the name calling that has been going back and forth. Nevertheless, I will maintain that it is bad to consistently run the tank low and even worse to run it dry. As I said before, pumps of any kind do not like to be run dry. As a parts guy for about 7 years, I saw the pump failures come in. Now granted it may be only a $100 part but that is $100 I don't want to spend prematurely.

As for nhluhr's comments. I know he has been here a long time and does have a wealth of knowledge about some things. The thing is I have seen him slam the door on people in a similar fashion in other threads. Most of the time I do not have enough knowledge myself to assert or dispute his point of view. This time I believe he is incorrect about the affects on the fuel pump over the long term. Whatever the case is, nhluhr, lighten up on people a little man. I know AFSTIGUY came back strong but from his perspective I can see why.

Can't we all just get along? :beer:
 
shftat6 said:
I won't justify AFSTIGUY's comments or any of the name calling that has been going back and forth. Nevertheless, I will maintain that it is bad to consistently run the tank low and even worse to run it dry. As I said before, pumps of any kind do not like to be run dry. As a parts guy for about 7 years, I saw the pump failures come in. Now granted it may be only a $100 part but that is $100 I don't want to spend prematurely.

As for nhluhr's comments. I know he has been here a long time and does have a wealth of knowledge about some things. The thing is I have seen him slam the door on people in a similar fashion in other threads. Most of the time I do not have enough knowledge myself to assert or dispute his point of view. This time I believe is incorrect about the affects on the fuel pump over the long term. Whatever the case is, nhluhr, lighten up on people a little man. I know AFSTIGUY came back strong but from his perspective I can see why.

Can't we all just get along? :beer:
shftat6...thanks for the constructive reply. Agree with you whole-heartedly...the name-calling is pointless and immature. I suppose I was regressing to a level I didn't need to. Thank you. I also appreciate your empathetic notion WRT my aggression. When a rhetorical question was posted, "Why is it bad for your fuel pump", I misunderstood that nhlurhl was looking for some information, not trying to stage an ambush. Had I been able to foreshadow the outcome, I would have left well-enough alone.

Also, on a side note, there was another thread about the pressure in the tank, and how the fuel seems to cutoff at the gas pumps prematurely. Is there a good explanation for why this happens. I have only refueled a few times, but have noticed everytime the pump wants to cut at about 3/4 tank.

Thanks for the assistance to my inquiry
 
Frozen STI said:
But the real question is, "why take the risk at all?" I hate having to worry if I have enough gas to last the day, there is always the potential problem where you can't get to a gas station soon enough, or when I'm rushed to get somewhere and I notice that I'm at 1/8th of a tank.
It's just as easy to keep the top half full as the bottom half.
I totally agree 100%.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Sinister Subaru said:
We have "low fuel lights in our STis?" :confused:
:lol: For what it's worth, the service manager asked me why I commented about possibly burning the fuel pump out (while borrowing their gas to fillup) when it would be covered by warranty. I smiled and said "yeah right". ;)
 
AFSTIGUY said:
Sinister...that was some constructive feedback, until you came back with the owned comment. I never said it was bad below a 1/3 of a tank either...I said that was conservative, but that consistently running it below 3 gallons (ie. when the light is on and below) can over a prolonged period of time can cause an early degredation of the pump. Dr. Garth Hobson from the Mechnical and Astro. Engineering department at the Naval Postgraduate School (also, and alum from Penn State, where I got my Bach of Science degree) verified today that the intrinsic wear and tear on both electrical and mechanical pumps (the latter being in carbourated cars vice fuel injected ones) can be from numerous factors, not one of which more important than another perse. His exact words were "there are numerous variables that can cause detonation of a pressure-dependent system, but all of these variables must act directly against pressure in order to cause failure."

He said that in his experience, the most common cause for most pumps (not just auto fuel pumps, but was referring to in aero-turbines) failing is due to contaminents in the system that cause a reduction in pressure--when the flux of fuel through the filter and into the pump decreases), This WILL be more concentrated at the bottom of an empty tank vs. a full tank. While the car is moving, gas (a fluid) is constantly mixing. So, the more fuel you have, the lower the molarity or mass percentage of contaminents. On the flip side, the less fuel, the higher the molarity.

I am glad I gave you a laugh at my expense. As for the drop clutching, I suppose I can afford it now...I got lucky I guess. I won't dare search through all of your posts--I will leave that to the Democrats...to try and dig up dirt. I will instead do more productive things like try to protect the citizens of our nation (which sometimes surprise the hell out of me, and make me think twice).
Dude, what is it with the bug up your ass about Democrats? In a previous post you mention "liberals," and now it's the "Democrats." Same thing, but what the hell is your problem? I don't think peoples' political standpoints have anything to do with the debate at hand.

Dude, grow up. Not all Democrats are tree huggers, and not all Republicans support George Bush. Normally, MOST PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING that a politician does. They just tend to lean more towards one side than the other on MOST subjects that the member of that political party supports.

Don't go turning this into a political war, noob. You'll learn very quickly that it doesn't fly on this forum.

Moving on.....

You can say whatever you want, and quote whatever and whoever you want, from Dr. David Banner, Dr. Kavorkian, Dr. Dre, whoever, and nobody is disagreeing that running on a VERY LOW amount of gas is going to damage the fuel pump. The REASON for the damaged fuel pump is because it would OVERHEAT.

We all clearly understand what you are trying to say about "more gas= less contaminants." Naturally, the less gas you have in the tank, the more contaminants are going to be in a particular amount because it's an overall smaller volume of gas. For instance, if you have a half-glass of milk and dump in a tsp of chocolate syrup, it's going to be darker than if you had a full glass of milk and dumped in a tsp of chocolate syrup. We get it. It's unnecessary to address everyone like we're stupid.

Now, I understand that you're proud of your little BS degree, and like to tout off your knowledge, and you have every right to be proud; college isn't easy. But don't come in here acting high and mighty like you "run the show." There are a lot of other intelligent members participating in this forum, and it's PAINFULLY obvious that someone of these people DO know more about cars (ESPECIALLY Subarus) than you do.

And what gave me the laugh at your expense is the fact that you come in here beating your chest about fuel pumps, but in another thread you mention about how you have beaten the piss out of your not-yet-broken-in car, which is WORSE. This CLEARLY shows how naive you are when it comes to certain subjects at hand.

Here are some words of friendly advice: You have the deck stacked against you just because you are a noob. Being a noob, and coming in here with your arrogant attitude and disrespecting seasoned members, is not the way to make friends. We don't know you. For all we know, you could be the coolest cat to walk the Earth, but first impressions are lasting impressions. Don't make a bad impression on people. We welcome all new members with open arms, and we're happy to see new members joining, but don't piss in our faces.

I am willing to give you a second chance at your first impression, and it starts now. Some of the other members of this forum might not be so forgiving.
 
:argue: ---> :lock:



:wave:
 
AFSTIGUY - this is not your forum to promote your politics, although I'd suggest aligning yourself with our current fearless leader isn't helping you gain intellectual respect around here :lol: .

But I digress...yada yada yada, BS degree, well isn't that nice. Will that make these mysterious rust particles appear in our gas? Please, before posting again do this: remove your back seat, remove the access cover to the gas tank, and stick your head in :D . Then you will see there's nothing floating in there. Suggesting that fuel level in the tank correlates to pump output pressure pretty much confirms that your BS degree was not in engineering.

I wholeheartedly support Nhluhr's correction of your mis-information. This forum would be absolutely pointless if bad info wasn't called out and refuted. Maybe you should do more reading and less posting for a while.
 
While I appreciate the offers at a 2nd chance, I don't want to ask anybody to do anything special...I am not special, I simply had tried to answer a question that was asked. If I have a decked stacked against me for being new, than perhaps most of the people in here aren't people I would like to associated with. I don't claim to be a cool cat, that isn't my deal, and I certainly don't beat my chest or my **** over having a B.S.

Before I bought an STi, I solicted Peleg, probably one of the most well-rounded individuals I have conversed with...I did nothing but listen to his advice (other than he nearly talked me into a Legacy GT), and respected all that he said. I did not pretend to know anything, but rather listened to what he said, as he did it in a civil manner.

Reading another member's post (one who is pretty senior), this does not appear to be the first time this has happened with aforementioned people. I stepped into a trap, and answered it foolishly, by namecalling.

But I will not stop to post and read a while...I read while I am posting, and have taken everything in. This whole thread started with going empty, which we can all agree is at least not a good thing for the car. However, one mechanic may tell you running low is ok, and one may say it is bad...it is a moot point to keep discussing, because there will always be a difference of opinions.

I never came on this forum to make friends, or to try to offend people. As for the politics, well, this may not be the appropriate forum...but apparantly the bait worked, and the termites came out of the woodwork. I just get tired on a daily basis of turning on the TV to watch half-wits discuss THEIR opinions...nobody gives a **** about what anybody else thinks but themselves. What was my original intention to inform somebody got turned back into my face...and obvious correlation was drawn between somebody trying to "ambush" me (maybe because I am new, maybe not), and a certain egregious group of people I see daily (I call them the reality-tv group).

I will not be writing again in this thread, as I do feel it is out of hand, and needs to be dropped. But the hypocracy of telling me to read instead of post, or to watch my step as a newbie is frustrating.

If in CA, check your 6
 
AFSTIGUY said:
While I appreciate the offers at a 2nd chance, I don't want to ask anybody to do anything special...I am not special, I simply had tried to answer a question that was asked. If I have a decked stacked against me for being new, than perhaps most of the people in here aren't people I would like to associated with. I don't claim to be a cool cat, that isn't my deal, and I certainly don't beat my chest or my **** over having a B.S.

Before I bought an STi, I solicted Peleg, probably one of the most well-rounded individuals I have conversed with...I did nothing but listen to his advice (other than he nearly talked me into a Legacy GT), and respected all that he said. I did not pretend to know anything, but rather listened to what he said, as he did it in a civil manner.

Reading another member's post (one who is pretty senior), this does not appear to be the first time this has happened with aforementioned people. I stepped into a trap, and answered it foolishly, by namecalling.

But I will not stop to post and read a while...I read while I am posting, and have taken everything in. This whole thread started with going empty, which we can all agree is at least not a good thing for the car. However, one mechanic may tell you running low is ok, and one may say it is bad...it is a moot point to keep discussing, because there will always be a difference of opinions.

I never came on this forum to make friends, or to try to offend people. As for the politics, well, this may not be the appropriate forum...but apparantly the bait worked, and the termites came out of the woodwork. I just get tired on a daily basis of turning on the TV to watch half-wits discuss THEIR opinions...nobody gives a **** about what anybody else thinks but themselves. What was my original intention to inform somebody got turned back into my face...and obvious correlation was drawn between somebody trying to "ambush" me (maybe because I am new, maybe not), and a certain egregious group of people I see daily (I call them the reality-tv group).

I will not be writing again in this thread, as I do feel it is out of hand, and needs to be dropped. But the hypocracy of telling me to read instead of post, or to watch my step as a newbie is frustrating.

If in CA, check your 6
Look, NOBODY is telling you to read, and not to post. At least, I didn't. What I did say is that you are new here, and just start off on the right foot. The problem isn't with you debating subjects. It's with your treatment of others.

I don't quite see WHY someone would try to "ambush" you, or even WANT to "ambush" you. :confused:

You also mention that "the bait worked." You are admitting to making political comments with no other reason than to piss people off. Why? And as for the "half-wits on tv," what does www.iwsti.com have to do with tv? :confused:

Look, I'm not defending "NHLUHR's" taunting actions, becuase I don't agree with them either, but what I am defending is the fact that you started this entire situation by threatening him. Just be the better man, and let it go.

As an example, I got in a heated debate with a few people in a different thread, and it was closed down. I basically just kept telling the guy to "Calm down" or "relax," because he was getting uptight. He was all bent out of shape because I told him that my Camaro would beat an STi in a straight line on a roll. Then, he went rattling off about how I started bashing the STi. :rolleyes: Then, the thread was closed and he started Emailing me and calling me "White Trash," along with other choice words. Sure, I replied a few times, and after a few times, I'm not getting any more PMs from this person, which is a good thing. I guess he got over it after I told him, "Look, I own both cars, and I can make comparisons. I have personal experience with each of them. You have nothing (that's the short version)." But, whatever. It's over and done with. I'm not holding any grudges.

As far as overlooking this situation, and choosing to PERSONALLY give you a second chance, it isn't "something special." It's my own decision. You joined the board, and things got off to a bad start. Who am I? Nobody. Why does it matter that I personally choose to give you a second chance? It doesn't. I'm not the owner of this forum, or even a moderator. I'm a peon, just like you. I just wanna be cool with most of the people here (others I wouldn't even bother with), and talk cars. You sound like a smart guy, so let's act like it, ok?

Now, let's move on, shall we?
 
Just to pour fuel on a smoldering fire. Earlier someone said that fuel pumps are now put in the fuel tank for "cooling". This is simply not true.

Way back in the bad old days, cars suffered from Vapor Lock. In other words, the heat in the engine compartment would cause little bubbles of fuel vapor to form in the fuel line. Since the engine mounted fuel pump could not pump a gas (vs a liquid) the pump would just cavitate. The result was no fuel, and a dead car.

To remedy this 2 things can be done.
1) design a fuel system that constantly moves an excess of fuel from the tank to the engine compartment. What is needed is used, what is not needed is actually returned to the fuel tank. (The Bosch L and K Jetronic systems that I played with on old saab turbos used this system)
2) put the fuel pump in the trunk so you are PUSHING the fuel into the engine compartment rather than SUCKING it from the tank. It seems like the same thing, but with the pump in the tank the fuel is under pressure for its entire run. Much less likely to vapor lock.

All modern cars use one or both of these systems. I don't personally know if our car returns fuel to the tank.

Don
 
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