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Old 11-17-11, 05:47 PM   #221
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Tim, we'll work on the ideas for subambient temps, I'd love to help you out on that one.
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Old 11-17-11, 05:50 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3h_Clap View Post
is it because the water doesn't stay in the box long enough to be cooled?
In short... Yes and no. Like tim says the water flows out too fast. To gain real efficiency on this idea I see only a few options. They rely on evaporative cooling and expansion of compressed gasses. I'd love to feed T-G some stuff to try out.
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Old 11-17-11, 06:17 PM   #223
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

Fuji is absolutely correct. It comes down to flow rate and the waters dwell time in contact with the cooling medium. I've explored a few options so far but I'll keep those under my hat for now until I can work out the best route both efficiency wise and dollar wise along with Fuji. Regardless the possibility of having an efficiency of an iced reservoir such as those found on drag cars in an everyday use on the street senario is quite feasable and not too dificult to do given the right hardware. It's just a matter of waiting for that "Ah Ha" moment to come along. I do believe that having IC outlet temps 10-20 degrees below ambient on a daily driver is possible.
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T-Gs AIR TO WATER INTERCOOLER BUILD THREAD:
https://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...tercooler.html
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Old 11-17-11, 06:32 PM   #224
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

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Originally Posted by Turbineguy View Post
I still can't get the IC outlet temps to go more than about 10 degrees over ambient no matter how much I rail on it and that's even with near 200 degree turbo outlet temps.
1st and foremost, thanks for using our product!

Regarding the temps you're seeing, something doesn't sound right. There's always a temperature delta from inlet to outlet and no core is 100% efficient (keeping outlet temps near ambient). If it were 30 feet long it would be close, but that core is small (relatively speaking). I noticed you're using aviation sensors. My guess is that those sensors are not fast reacting. Aircrafts typically have no quick operational changes so they don't need fast. We used a setup on a prototype a few years back that you could watch the temp change if you breathed on it, and it dropped as you ran out of breath. It was pretty cool. If that's not the case, something else to check would be sensor location. If the sensor is right in the stream it will react much faster vs. being on the inside of a bend or in a turbulent spot. How deep the sensor protrudes can have a significant effect too, both sensors should be in or near the same boundary layer. Too close to the tubing wall and you can pick up more radiant heat from the tubing wall than from the air. With a blow through MAF and FMIC you often see temps rise when coasting because there's next to no airflow through the tube but the tubing picks up radiant heat from the engine bay and heats the air inside some, usually not more than 2-3 degrees.

All in all, that's a pretty cool (pun intended) setup! Quality parts, good layout and highly functional. I like it
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Old 11-17-11, 06:58 PM   #225
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
1st and foremost, thanks for using our product!

Regarding the temps you're seeing, something doesn't sound right. There's always a temperature delta from inlet to outlet and no core is 100% efficient (keeping outlet temps near ambient). If it were 30 feet long it would be close, but that core is small (relatively speaking). I noticed you're using aviation sensors. My guess is that those sensors are not fast reacting. Aircrafts typically have no quick operational changes so they don't need fast. We used a setup on a prototype a few years back that you could watch the temp change if you breathed on it, and it dropped as you ran out of breath. It was pretty cool. If that's not the case, something else to check would be sensor location. If the sensor is right in the stream it will react much faster vs. being on the inside of a bend or in a turbulent spot. How deep the sensor protrudes can have a significant effect too, both sensors should be in or near the same boundary layer. Too close to the tubing wall and you can pick up more radiant heat from the tubing wall than from the air. With a blow through MAF and FMIC you often see temps rise when coasting because there's next to no airflow through the tube but the tubing picks up radiant heat from the engine bay and heats the air inside some, usually not more than 2-3 degrees.

All in all, that's a pretty cool (pun intended) setup! Quality parts, good layout and highly functional. I like it
Oil pickup is a beautiful piece and thoroughly worth the investment. No STI should be running without one as exidence has borne out. Not worth the risk and i just happen to get lucky when mine let go.

Regarding the temp readings I see. I have two of the dual temp gauges with probes in the following locations. The first has one probe right in the flow path of the IC inlet and the other one right in the flow path of the IC outlet. That's the one that gives me the difference between IC inlet and outlet temps and hence the amount of heat the core is removing from the charge air. The other gauge has one probe in the right side fog light bezel directly in the incoming ambient airflow and the other is mounted in the water reservoir for a direct reading of water temp. The sample rate was a concern for me and as someone who makes a living flying I completely understand where your going with steady state power settings and the much more gradual changes of conditions regarding temperature fluctuations. The sample rate on these meters (which are made by Davtron Avionics BTW) seem to be on the order of around 10 times a second from what I can tell. They seem to keep up quite close to whats going on temp wise and show no appreciable lag when I give it the boot. The two primary numbers I watch usually are the ambient temp which is whats entering the airfilter and the IC outlet temp which gives me a pretty good idea of how efficient the system is working. It averages about 8 degrees over ambient coming out of the IC and will spike to around 10-12 degrees over ambient when during long full boost pulls or full boost trips through the gears and even after multiple floggings.

The probes are about 1.5" long and about 3/16" in diameter. They respond to breathing on as you describe though not quite as rapidly as you state. I held one by it's cord and touched the end momentarily with the tip of my finger and it nearly instantly registered a temp change and just as rapidly went back to it's original temp.
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T-Gs AIR TO WATER INTERCOOLER BUILD THREAD:
https://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...tercooler.html

Last edited by Turbineguy; 11-17-11 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 11-17-11, 07:06 PM   #226
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

how about a CO2 fuel block inline before the IC?
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Old 11-17-11, 07:10 PM   #227
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

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Originally Posted by 1breel View Post
how about a CO2 fuel block inline before the IC?
While some form of cryo cooling is probably the way to go the idea is to have a self contained non consumable or total loss system to accompolish this. A Cryo spray bar on the heat exchanger would be quite easy and probably function well but it would require refilling the bottle often which is no better than frequently adding ice to the reservoir.
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T-Gs AIR TO WATER INTERCOOLER BUILD THREAD:
https://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...tercooler.html
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Old 11-17-11, 07:19 PM   #228
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

Ford was working on cool setup for the aborted Lighting, it used the coolant from the AC system to cool the intake charge. Saw a brief mention of this in an article years ago and nothing since. Maybe someone can elaborate...
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Old 11-17-11, 07:20 PM   #229
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbineguy View Post
While some form of cryo cooling is probably the way to go the idea is to have a self contained non consumable or total loss system to accompolish this. A Cryo spray bar on the heat exchanger would be quite easy and probably function well but it would require refilling the bottle often which is no better than frequently adding ice to the reservoir.

I'll advise against this implementation for a few reasons.
1. why release the gas there when you can have a contained environment with more surface area?
2. your intake. if any expanded gases get into your intake that will mess with your AFRs. no bueno. CO2 and you'll run rich NOX and you'll run lean.
3. I dont like the idea of a recharged system. I like something that I turn a dial or flip a switch and get results even if I forget a refill.


T-G, we'll get this going, I'm still working on an effective and simple route for a same side core or something else (heheheh) to reduce piping and allow for a bigger A/W core.
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Old 11-17-11, 07:25 PM   #230
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Default Re: T-Gs Air to Water IC Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujiwara View Post
I'll advise against this implementation for a few reasons.
1. why release the gas there when you can have a contained environment with more surface area?
2. your intake. if any expanded gases get into your intake that will mess with your AFRs. no bueno. CO2 and you'll run rich NOX and you'll run lean.
3. I dont like the idea of a recharged system. I like something that I turn a dial or flip a switch and get results even if I forget a refill.


T-G, we'll get this going, I'm still working on an effective and simple route for a same side core or something else (heheheh) to reduce piping and allow for a bigger A/W core.

I completely agree and probably using the cryo moniker isn't exactly right. What I meant was some sort of contained gas expansion along the lines of a refrigerant system rather than a gas release. However as you and I had discussed awhile back there are certainly other options available. I'll be interested to see/hear what you come up with for core ideas and setup.
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"Give a man fire and he is warm for a day, set him on fire and he is warm his whole life."-Terry Pratchett

T-Gs AIR TO WATER INTERCOOLER BUILD THREAD:
https://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...tercooler.html
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