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Baron's '05 STi journal - **Carbon bits installed**
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Old 10-15-16, 08:02 AM   #721
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
You're really coming off as an asshole with poor reading comprehension.

If you noticed, in both of my posts, I said "If that's the problem"
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
I would give the odds of the head or deck surface not being flat a 1 out of 10,000. The issue is going to be the gasket or the torque. In both cases, it's going to be the OPs fault, not IAGs.
Not quite. You didn't say "if that's the problem" until replying to my post, which the responses were in regards to. Additionally, you are outright saying it would be the OP's fault, which is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
So I'll sum it up again: IF THAT IS THE PROBLEM, it's his fault. Because, IF THAT IS THE PROBLEM, he obviously didn't check them well enough. If that isn't the problem, then nothing I said pertaining to that specific issue applies. I think that goes without saying, but I'll go ahead and say it for you.
Again, read your first post... Again.

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Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
So maybe you should seriously take a chill pill. You're more upset, more hostile and a much larger prick than the guy who owns the car, engine and is experiencing the issue. So if he isn't as upset as you, maybe there is something you should look into; like yourself.
It seems you do not know how involved in the car I am. I'm not really upset, I just literally call out the obvious. First one being that the response to the leaking has now changed. They were so sure it was leaking due to the head surface finish (to the tune of "250%") and never mentioned prior to doing the work to fix, and subsequently leaking again, that the gaskets now need to be heat cycled... Something the makers of the gasket disagree with (although still not absolute).


Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
At this point, you are only pure poison in the thread and you're not helping the OP at all because others are trying to help, but your attitude is making them less likely to help. Your misplaced anger will actually affect your friend negatively.

So get it under control.

If you think you have nothing to get under control, then you need to seek professional assistance. Recommending anyone commit suicide over an engine is pretty ridiculous.
The suicide comment wasn't literal but also not opposing, so get over yourself. Before telling me to get under control, make sure you know what you're 'literally' saying with your typed words. I realize you're just unhappy that I'm not defending the shop and said friend of yours, to which is the only reason you've come to this thread and isn't your job to do. My posting shouldn't affect how a business helps their customers... so are you really saying that your friend's company is less likely to help their paying customer because of my posting... Really? You know you're now not helping in any way, right?

And yes, I may be even more blunt now after with a shitty experience with CS rep from said shop when talking through the issue. Telling me how many X a shop builds means nothing to me. MANY shops have told me that type of thing, and I still elect do most everything myself.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:09 AM   #722
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

I came in here to give you help by telling you about the cardboard issue, give you some insight on the head studs and to point out the absurdity of your claims.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:15 AM   #723
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

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Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
Hey OP,

As owner of a shop and friends with IAG, this is what I think you should do.

remove the heads, look between the layers of the head gaskets for cardboard.
Take a picture of the studs in the block from the side so the relative heights can be compared.

Why? In the last month, we've had two HG's from JE show up with cardboard between the layers. The little punched out piece from the packaging that gives you the spot to hang it on, has SOMEHOW got into the bag with the gasket and found its way in between the gasket layers. Guess what happens when you put coolant in the engine with the cardboard in the HG? It leaks just like that picture you posted.
Running it very well may soften the cardboard or burn it enough that it no longer affects the seal. Which lends credibility to what IAG suggested, but it does not address the actual issue. I would prefer to address the actual issue.

Lastly, ALWAYS un-torque ARP studs (or any head faster in a Subaru) after torquing them. That part of the procedure isn't just about the factory bolts. It's about the embossing on the gasket laying flat in addition to the bolt stretch. The distance between studs is so great that you can force the embossed area to unevenly compress as the heads flex from torque. Also, ARP told me specifically that they should always be torqued, untorqued and torqued again if they are new studs. They mentioned that the threads get "cleaned up" on the stud and the nut as well as the stud stretches just a little bit with torquing. The person at ARP told me to do it 3 times. I have found 2 with the recheck 12-24hrs later to be sufficient.
I find it funny that will the helpful advice and data I provided, you only chose to pay attention to the last sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post

I would give the odds of the head or deck surface not being flat a 1 out of 10,000. The issue is going to be the gasket or the torque. In both cases, it's going to be the OPs fault, not IAGs.

Good luck,
Dominic
^^^^
That's the only important thing I said and obviously the only reason I'm in here

Well I'll leave you to it. Have fun being angry. Have fun cheating Cobb's tuning platform. You're obviously a pillar of morality and honesty. SYOD
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Old 10-15-16, 09:26 AM   #724
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Dominic, were you by chance going to address the questions I asked you? I'm genuinely curious about what you stated.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:41 AM   #725
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

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Originally Posted by BaronOBeefdip View Post
Dominic, were you by chance going to address the questions I asked you? I'm genuinely curious about what you stated.
I'm sorry, I missed them.

In the early days of MPS we had a handful of issues with heads lifting due to torque dropping on the ARP studs. We contacted ARP about the issue and they told us to torque and untorque new studs 3 times for the reasons I mentioned. It was around that time that we started noticing that they loosen up overnight and started telling people about the torque and wait method.

It is my belief that if you've already torqued them a few times, you're good to go. you shouldn't have to torque them three times every time. However, for the head gasket compression to be proper, you do need to back them off 180 degrees after hitting your torque setting and retorque; similar to the OEM procedure. I always torque the inner studs 5 more than the outer studs.

I hope that was written clear enough. I appreciate your civility. I only came in here to help.

I've caused enough trouble in this thread. I'm going to unsubscribe now.
If you want a good laugh, here's a short video series that's pretty funny in the first 8 segments. It gets a little boring once the racing starts. Figured I would leave you with some comedy.

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Old 10-15-16, 12:56 PM   #726
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezarsx View Post
I find it funny that will the helpful advice and data I provided, you only chose to pay attention to the last sentence.



^^^^
That's the only important thing I said and obviously the only reason I'm in here

Well I'll leave you to it. Have fun being angry. Have fun cheating Cobb's tuning platform. You're obviously a pillar of morality and honesty. SYOD
You think it's cheating that a paying customer chooses to have their car tuned by someone they want to tune it? They're cheating the customer is what they're doing, PERIOD. I'm working on a free tune to replace a "ProTuner" map and this isn't the first time.

Cobb is one of the most dishonest companies I've ever used, with screenshots to prove it and vendors here that'll say the same thing. Additionally, their new training is a joke, in addition to really just being a money grab. A current, free customer was able to just click through it. So yeah, I guess I'm cheating using my abilities with a program that someone is paying for to tune their car. I guess it's also cheating when I convince someone to buy a $650 device from said company that isn't of great build quality, when they could get by with borrowing a TacTrix. I was also the person that recommended the OP to use IAG for a closed deck block, so I suppose I should stop doing that?

If you really want to go at it with me about this, PM me. I'll remove all your posts here in that regard.

FYI, the last sentence is all I originally quoted from you, intentionally. I did it to make a point that it's not to blame the customer if it's not obvious to be the companies fault. You took offense and ran with it, while mis-quoting yourself.
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Last edited by yamahaSHO; 10-15-16 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 10-18-16, 06:22 AM   #727
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Well, I stand corrected. Happy to learn something new every day, though!

This could be good news for Gavin, and my apologies for providing bad information. I will edit my prior post to prevent confusion in the future. I would never have thought this to be the case but with the explanation behind it, it makes sense.


Quote:
"I agree that it is a little disconcerting that a coolant leak occurs when the engine is just assembled & zero pressure on the cooling system. However, this type of leakage does happen. It was good that he had the heads shaved. Sometimes when I assemble an MLS head gasket test and run the nitrogen test, I will not always have a cylinder(s) that seal 100% before I run the engine. The rubber coatings used need to "settle in & flow" into the surface imperfections. I do not have any coolant leakage to the outside, though.

Since I don’t know what type of coating JE uses for their head gaskets, it could be a higher durometer rubber that does not “cold seal” well. Once the engine goes through a heat cycle it should be fine. I understand your thoughts that if it leaks now, it will continue to leak. That possibility does exist but once the engine is run, the leak will probably stop."

Last edited by Kyle_05_STi; 10-18-16 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 10-18-16, 07:50 AM   #728
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Thanks Kyle, I appreciate it. Who did you reach out to by chance?

So I guess this reinforces IAG's notion in a sense. I don't know if I still want to proceed though. Part of me is saying that, in order to rule ME out of the equation, and since I went to 100ft-lbs OUT of sequence, I think I should go back and check things over. However, it's tough to say though because JE themselves don't completely agree with that notion.

IAG is just telling me to go 30-60-90, not 100 final on the centers. I really don't know if that extra 10 is the problem, however it may contribute since I did it out of sequence. Here's another reason why I'm not convinced it's that: because when I was talking to IAG about possibly using ARP 625s, I asked them what dynamics would change since they used a torque plate with 2000s, etc. They said that I would be fine to use 625s, but that they recommend not going more than 5-10ft-lbs OVER the final value of the 2000s, which is where I am WITH 2000s. Food for thought....

The ONLY thing I'm not sure of right now is whether or not to reuse this gasket set. Reason being that the drops are coming from between the gasket layers; I just don't know if you can reuse in this case.

EDIT: And to address the stretch on ARP studs vs. OEM bolts, I ran into an acquaintance locally yesterday who also upgraded to 2000s on his '04(using OEM gaskets and block) and he had an experienced mechanic friend over his shoulder as well. ARP sequence, not backing off 180*, etc.......his build has stayed dry, go figure.

Last edited by BaronOBeefdip; 10-18-16 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 10-18-16, 08:51 AM   #729
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronOBeefdip View Post
Thanks Kyle, I appreciate it. Who did you reach out to by chance?

So I guess this reinforces IAG's notion in a sense. I don't know if I still want to proceed though. Part of me is saying that, in order to rule ME out of the equation, and since I went to 100ft-lbs OUT of sequence, I think I should go back and check things over. However, it's tough to say though because JE themselves don't completely agree with that notion.

IAG is just telling me to go 30-60-90, not 100 final on the centers. I really don't know if that extra 10 is the problem, however it may contribute since I did it out of sequence. Here's another reason why I'm not convinced it's that: because when I was talking to IAG about possibly using ARP 625s, I asked them what dynamics would change since they used a torque plate with 2000s, etc. They said that I would be fine to use 625s, but that they recommend not going more than 5-10ft-lbs OVER the final value of the 2000s, which is where I am WITH 2000s. Food for thought....

The ONLY thing I'm not sure of right now is whether or not to reuse this gasket set. Reason being that the drops are coming from between the gasket layers; I just don't know if you can reuse in this case.

EDIT: And to address the stretch on ARP studs vs. OEM bolts, I ran into and acquaintance locally yesterday who also upgraded to 2000s on his '04(using OEM gaskets and block) and he had an experienced mechanic friend over his shoulder as well. ARP sequence, not backing off 180*, etc.......his build has stayed dry, go figure.
I can't say who exactly because we're talking about JE HG's (they are a competitor), but it's a response 3 engineers at a very reputable manufacturer of gaskets and seals agreed upon.

I wouldn't reuse the head gaskets if you un-torque all of the bolts completely. What we normally recommend if someone is unsure of a final torque spec is leaving all of the fasteners where they are, and one-at-a-time loosening them, retorquing to the proper specs, then moving on to the next fastener in the sequence. On the last step of the torque sequence, try to bring the bolt (nut in your case, since you're using studs) up to the final torque in one smooth motion - the torque wrench is measuring friction in the threads, and if you stop turning, the friction to get the nut turning again will be higher and could cause the wrench to click/beep (depending on the type you're using) early.

I wouldn't worry about the gaskets leaking from going to 100 on the centers, I doubt that could be an issue. If anything, the cylinder bore distortion and valve lash may change a tiny bit if they stopped at 90 when torquing the torque plate or when the valve lash was checked with the heads bolted to the block.

I say give it a shot, especially when Rick and the rest of the good people at IAG are saying go for it. You're probably closer to starting the engine than you are to pulling it back out. I would also think you are fine with the 2000's vs the 625+'s. They're both still 11mm studs, so there not much of a benefit to the 625's unless you're trying to future-proof the engine even further.
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Old 10-19-16, 08:14 AM   #730
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is back in again**

Fair enough, I understand on that. Thanks for that.

I'm not really close to starting it, kind of actually in the middle of the process I guess, which leads me to my next point.....

I'm definitely pulling it again. At this point I have drained out as much coolant as possible(there's still going to be some in there I know), but I looked again last night and there is a major amount collecting on the front bottom corner of the passenger side and it looks to be coming from above which is behind the rear timing cover. So it's somewhere between the top and bottom gasket surfaces on the block face. I have not seen this much in one area before, just wow.
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