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Baron's '05 STi journal - **Carbon bits installed**
Baron's '05 STi journal - **Carbon bits installed**
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Old 07-14-16, 05:41 AM   #651
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

In friends cars I always have the heads decked just in case when I am building them.

In my own cars I have never had the heads decked and never had any leak always using Felpro headgaskets. All I do is clean up the surface with a razor blade and scotch bright. On a set of SOHC heads that came from a blown headgasket engine I took 400 grit sand paper wrapped it around a 2x4 that was 1ft long and block sanded it "Flat". That car is my daily with 30k kms now on it and it overheated once (I am talking temp needle buried into the H) because the rad got plugged with mud and both rad fans fuses blew because they couldn't spin much with the mud haha. Still doesn't use a drop of coolant.

My current built motor in my WRX I did the razor blade and scotch bright method and it runs fantastically. Not saying yours should OP but this is just my experience of the matter. So I am a little surprised like Yamaha that they blew that fast.

Also don't trust what I do will work for you. Use it more as insight
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Old 07-14-16, 07:50 AM   #652
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legba View Post
It was sarcastic. I was making a funny.
Oh, misunderstood. No worries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legba View Post
Unless they are using a custom gasket to seal off all 'closed' areas, the seals are still in the same spot. While the closed areas don't see actual flow, they are still exposed to fluid. Anything between the inner seal and outer seal will see coolant fluid/pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_05_STi View Post
Exactly. The holes in the gaskets are usually not going to vary in size/location even between manufacturers. They meter the flow of coolant through the block and head castings, and since the OE coolant hole locations and sizes work well, there's really no reason for aftermarket manufacturers to stray from that design.
I should've been more clear and rereading my post, seems I used the wrong words. I meant that there is more area of the gasket that is uncoated bare metal between the OEM and JE. But then, essentially isn't that the aim by IAG to use JE's method? To seal off the closed areas by having the entire gasket coated?

I'm thinking about it like this - since the metal layer at the seal points are embossed spring steel that flattens out slightly with clamping force, and with coating being contiguous across the whole gasket(no gaps in coating), wouldn't this pretty much seal off those closed areas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_05_STi View Post
Generally with any MLS head gasket, the biggest improvements can be made in the combustion seal, oil/coolant port sealing and the coating. The JE's are fine gaskets, I would say better than OE. The OE gaskets have been proven to work for many people when paired head studs, but they aren't anything special. I don't think the JE gaskets are the issue, it's more likely a surface finish/flatness issue.

FWIW - I used 625+ studs on my non-closed deck build. They're a bit overkill but I wanted the extra "insurance." However, You may want to stock with the studs/torque specs that were used when your block was machined/cylinders were honed. I don't know how much additional bore distortion you'd see with 625+ studs torqued to 100 ft-lbs compared to standard ARP's torqued to 90, but assuming the block was honed with a torque plate, the cylinder shape should be optimized for the studs are torque specs that were used during the machining process. Maybe the difference is negligible - I'm not a machinist or an engine builder so I couldn't tell you. Maybe the closed deck helps to minimize bore distortion as well, so maybe you could get away with the 625+ studs?

Also, if you upgrade studs you'll want to re-check valve lash. It's surprising how much the lash changes between setting lash on a table vs. setting lash with the heads torqued to the block. Using higher torque specs/studs that apply more load will likely affect lash. Factory lash is all over the place on used cams/buckets so you should re-check it anyhow.
Thanks for the info Kyle, I was wondering about that. Yes, IAG uses a torque plate in their boring/honing process. I was planning on rechecking lash anyways because I'm paranoid

At this point, I'm thinking it has to be a combination of surface roughness and flatness even though I and the machine shop checked; it's interesting to note though that the drops that are forming are in roughly the same areas along the gasket edges on both heads; in the middle, fore and aft of the lower center stud zone and aft of the rear lower stud zone.

This is really odd, and I really don't know how it's leaking with zero pressure and I'd like to agree with Jason that dimpling should be able to be accounted for in the coating at zero pressure, but either way the bottom line is I have leaks, albeit a very, very slow weep. It's not like I'm seeing puddles under the car though. I've moved the cardboard around under the car, and I don't see new spots, but when I get underneath to look at the situation, I notice the drops getting a bit bigger each time. So it leads me to believe it's internal as well. I'm sure this would be worse if I had fired the motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
^ listen to this guy he knows his sheet!
Indeed! Although most everybody who's been commenting does! It's been an interesting discussion so far, it's just an unfortunate reason on my end to have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
In friends cars I always have the heads decked just in case when I am building them.

In my own cars I have never had the heads decked and never had any leak always using Felpro headgaskets. All I do is clean up the surface with a razor blade and scotch bright. On a set of SOHC heads that came from a blown headgasket engine I took 400 grit sand paper wrapped it around a 2x4 that was 1ft long and block sanded it "Flat". That car is my daily with 30k kms now on it and it overheated once (I am talking temp needle buried into the H) because the rad got plugged with mud and both rad fans fuses blew because they couldn't spin much with the mud haha. Still doesn't use a drop of coolant.

My current built motor in my WRX I did the razor blade and scotch bright method and it runs fantastically. Not saying yours should OP but this is just my experience of the matter. So I am a little surprised like Yamaha that they blew that fast.

Also don't trust what I do will work for you. Use it more as insight
Interesting anecdote, thanks. That's also how I cleaned mine up prior to giving my parts to the shops(minus the sanding).

Last edited by BaronOBeefdip; 07-14-16 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 07-14-16, 09:51 AM   #653
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

The full coating on the JE's will seal imperfections on the micro-inch level, so depending on how rough the surface of the heads are, the coating may not be able to accommodate the roughness, especially when the roughness is across the entire deck and not just one area. Partial-coat gaskets like the OEM's usually require a surface finish of 30 Ra or smoother, and full-coat gaskets like the Fel-Pro's Delphi mentioned and that I also run or the JE's can usually handle a slightly rougher finish, 50-60 Ra max. 50-60 Ra is still really smooth, I'm guessing the bead blasting put your heads somewhere in the 80-120 Ra range. The only way to know for sure is to have them checked with a profilometer.

I was surprised the load from the embossments didn't keep the unpressurized coolant from leaking though. The embossments in the gaskets do flatten when pinched, but think of the embossments as "springs." they apply pressure even when they're squished between the heads and the block.

As far as sealing off the areas that are closed off, that has more to do with the location of the embossments than the coating,even on a closed deck setup. Coolant will fill the space between the layers of the gasket when the engine is running (keep in mind we're talking about space between layers of compressed MLS gasket, probably talking in thousandths of an inch, if not ten-thou's). Being closed deck will help compress these areas of the gasket more, but I wouldn't count on it being a total seal. The embossments should contain the coolant within the areas that should have coolant though, which is why coolant should never make it to the outside of the engine.

This is a quick photoshop, but coolant can and will exist in the green tinted area:
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Old 07-14-16, 10:06 AM   #654
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Bead blasting sounds like it would make a surface rougher
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Old 07-14-16, 10:18 AM   #655
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Wow nice post Kyle, thanks for that.

user, yeah it does. I'm not disputing that at all. I just wish I would've remembered this at the 11th hour.
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Old 07-23-16, 07:56 PM   #656
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Been away for a while but I have already begun the top-end teardown. All that's left is the starter, heater hoses, pitch stop, transmission bolts, and the motor mounts; then it's ready to pull. Once it's out, I'll be going hard in the paint to tear down further and get the heads to IAG quickly.

Was over at Rick's house tonight to help him pull his motor to replace a worn but new(2k miles with a couple track days mixed in) throw out bearing that came with his Spec clutch kit. Apparently they have a reputation for that. We got the OEM replacement installed and the motor back in its home. I hope my SouthBend TOB is of better quality.

Goddamn Nebraska summers, man.
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Old 07-24-16, 07:04 AM   #657
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Sorry to read about your HG issues. Hope you can get it fixed without too much money/hastle. At least you do alot of stuff yourself so that's a plus.

Good luck with the repairs.
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Old 07-28-16, 07:12 PM   #658
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Well, the motor is out again as of tonight. It begins again.

Goddamnit.
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Old 07-29-16, 04:38 AM   #659
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronOBeefdip View Post
Well, the motor is out again as of tonight. It begins again.

Goddamnit.
It goes a lot faster the second time, for what that's worth. Keep at it!
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Old 07-29-16, 07:28 PM   #660
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Default Re: Baron's '05 STi journal - **Motor is comin' out again...coolant leaks...**

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronOBeefdip View Post
Well, the motor is out again as of tonight. It begins again.

Goddamnit.
i am right there with you. my 07 yz450 just got rebuilt last year for a grand total of $1800, i didnt cheap out, replaced every bearing and even cams and now is leaking oil and possibly burning oil again after 38 hours
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