ATX and Surrounding - Drive to Lake Travis - Sunday 7/20/08 [Archive] - Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com

ATX and Surrounding - Drive to Lake Travis - Sunday 7/20/08

gabedude
07-17-08, 05:33 AM
Where: Arkansas bend (meet at HEB on nameless (2243) and old 183 (by my house)). There is a nice twisty back-way there.

Arkansas Bend Park, Travis County, Texas (http://www.co.travis.tx.us/tnr/parks/arkansas_bend.asp)

Who: Well, Tess and I will be there (we has babysitter). Gonna invite the Woodrows crowd. Anyone else who wants to come.

What to do: Swim fools! And drink Beer! Maybe BBQ!

When: Sunday 7/20/08 - Meet up around noon at HEB.

H-E-B Store Locator (http://www.heb.com/yourHEBStore/sLocator.do?id=592&page=1&address=&city=&state=TX&zipcode=78641&maxDistance=20&latitude=30.537137156439613&longitude=-97.94160005623539&attributesStr=)

-Gabe

EDIT:

Confirmed:

Gabe
Tess
Bobby
Braden
Kris

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 06:33 AM
I'm in for Sunday. Would like to meet everyone and see the cars this time!

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 07:03 AM
Sunday would work better since I will be out of town until Saturday night.

gabedude
07-17-08, 07:04 AM
Sunday works for us too. We will BBQ hotdogs prolly. Or maybe just drink. ;)

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 07:33 AM
I'll bring a few beers I have left from trying out this local "Shiner Hef"....just aint the same as Cali brews. I'll have to take you for a ride in the Meth Drunk wagon :)

gabedude
07-17-08, 07:35 AM
I'll take you up on that one. ;) Shiner Hef sucks. I have like 8 bottles in my fridge (refuse to drink them). Regular shiner is good. I like Grolsch though best I think.

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 07:37 AM
That shiner hef had some kind of nasty residue(wheat) all around the neck, thats why I wouldnt drink it and I will drink damn near anything with alcohol in it.

gabedude
07-17-08, 07:39 AM
You like spit it out it was so gross. I think I then tried it. LOL.

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 07:42 AM
Yea it wasnt so good. I think the shiner black is supposed to be really good.

P.S. I may be blowing some money on the AEM stand alone.

sti_kris
07-17-08, 07:47 AM
i'm down to go, i don't work on sunday.

gabedude
07-17-08, 08:06 AM
Thats 5 so far. ;)

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 08:09 AM
You know whats funny is after drinking a few bottles I noticed there are "instructions" on how to drink the beer on the bottle.... Who reads instructions on HOW to drink a beer??? WTF!

gabedude
07-17-08, 08:21 AM
Lol. That is some scary beer.

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 08:29 AM
Just mapped out to that HEB, 30 miles! How far do you live from that HEB?

gabedude
07-17-08, 08:31 AM
Mapquest and google have the store location wrong. It is at the corner of 183 and 2243. Right in the middle of Leander. If you google map Leander TX, the dot ends up right where the HEB is. I work in RR, it takes me 15-20 minutes to get home. I live ~1.5 miles from that HEB (off of Crystal Falls).

gabedude
07-17-08, 08:35 AM
Yea it wasnt so good. I think the shiner black is supposed to be really good.

P.S. I may be blowing some money on the AEM stand alone.

What made you choose AEM over say a Hydra or an Autronics? Does the AEM have auto-tune as well?

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 08:49 AM
I'll be coming from the 45W, what exit should I be taking off the 183A?

gabedude
07-17-08, 08:55 AM
I'll be coming from the 45W, what exit should I be taking off the 183A?

183A N to 2243 (take a left). Then once you hit old 183, take a right. Then the next stoplight take a left (that is still 2243 although you have to get on 183 to get to it). That is HEB. Call me if you get lost.

scrapiron7
07-17-08, 09:54 AM
Mapquest and google have the store location wrong. It is at the corner of 183 and 2243. Right in the middle of Leander.

Damn, I'd go but it would take me a tank of gas just to get up to Leander and back home. You yuppies in the suburbs :D

(I'm way down at 290 and Mopac, SW Austin)

gabedude
07-17-08, 10:02 AM
Sometimes we go out to Pace Bend, but that kills a tank of gas for us. It is a much larger park though. Just stay out of boost until you get to Leander. I used to work near where you live and made the drive from Leander every day. Mopac hits 183 and 183 turns into 183a. Its like a 15-20 minute drive on the toll roads to my house. Then another 20 minutes or so to the lake. ;)

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 10:03 AM
Have you ever been to MZM? I want to go dyno my car before I put the 18G on, looks like they want around $100-125 for 3 pulls?

gabedude
07-17-08, 10:09 AM
No, but I have spoken with Mohamed a couple times at Woodrows. I wouldn't use their dyno as it is very low reading. There is a dyno 1/2 way to San Antonio:

Directions to Henderson Performance Technologies (http://www.hendersonperformance.com/shop_loc.html)

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 11:02 AM
What made you choose AEM over say a Hydra or an Autronics? Does the AEM have auto-tune as well?

I have read about alot of issues with the Hydra and the Autranic doesnt have near the subaru support that the other two have. Plus I can get the AEM for much less than the Hydra:D. The AEM does autotune, it can use any wideband o2 and not just the propreitary one like the hydra, it uses either the factory MAP sensor or a different one, but doesnt require you to run the vacuum line for the boost signal into the car like the hydra, the tuning interface is point and click vs. key strokes(like I am gonna be tuning it anyway:rofl:), it is a pretty new product so I would like to get a good share of the market for them, and to do that I gotta sell them(and have a tuner/tuners, that know how to tune them). I am still on the fence and am gonna try to sort out what is actually wrong with my car this week, but I gotta check fuel pressure(need special tester) and some other things. I need to get a wideband as well.

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 11:10 AM
No, but I have spoken with Mohamed a couple times at Woodrows. I wouldn't use their dyno as it is very low reading. There is a dyno 1/2 way to San Antonio:

Directions to Henderson Performance Technologies (http://www.hendersonperformance.com/shop_loc.html)

Dyno Dynamics isn't much better for readings. DD also has a bad way of measuring wheel torque that is pretty innacurate. It's a great "tuning" dyno but for numbers it sucks as well. Either way I just want a good baseline for my tune on Meth and then again when the 18g is done.

sti_kris
07-17-08, 11:18 AM
i was just at mzm early, they are a good group of guys, they have a mustang dyno so it does read low in san antonio, alamo has an awd dyno also not sure which one tho.

gabedude
07-17-08, 11:22 AM
I have read about alot of issues with the Hydra and the Autranic doesnt have near the subaru support that the other two have. Plus I can get the AEM for much less than the Hydra:D. The AEM does autotune, it can use any wideband o2 and not just the propreitary one like the hydra, it uses either the factory MAP sensor or a different one, but doesnt require you to run the vacuum line for the boost signal into the car like the hydra, the tuning interface is point and click vs. key strokes(like I am gonna be tuning it anyway:rofl:), it is a pretty new product so I would like to get a good share of the market for them, and to do that I gotta sell them(and have a tuner/tuners, that know how to tune them). I am still on the fence and am gonna try to sort out what is actually wrong with my car this week, but I gotta check fuel pressure(need special tester) and some other things. I need to get a wideband as well.

IC. What is your car doing? FP going out you think? You can borrow my WBO2 if ya want. Have you done any logging recently?

gabedude
07-17-08, 11:24 AM
Dyno Dynamics isn't much better for readings. DD also has a bad way of measuring wheel torque that is pretty innacurate. It's a great "tuning" dyno but for numbers it sucks as well. Either way I just want a good baseline for my tune on Meth and then again when the 18g is done.

MZM will give you a good baseline if that is all you want. I'll prolly take my car there once it is broken in and tuned.

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 11:26 AM
I have an LM-1 as well that I use for road tunes.

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 11:27 AM
IC. What is your car doing? FP going out you think? You can borrow my WBO2 if ya want. Have you done any logging recently?

Its doing the same thing it was doing before even after a new front o2 sensor. The front o2 is spiking out at 20.44:1 randomly and causing the car to run stupid rich. My LTFT is like +25%. I know the car is not running lean because if it was my motor would have popped already. The fuel pump is new, but I need to check the fuel pressure anyway(thats part of the diagnosis sequence for one of the codes its throwing).

gabedude
07-17-08, 11:42 AM
Its doing the same thing it was doing before even after a new front o2 sensor. The front o2 is spiking out at 20.44:1 randomly and causing the car to run stupid rich. My LTFT is like +25%. I know the car is not running lean because if it was my motor would have popped already. The fuel pump is new, but I need to check the fuel pressure anyway(thats part of the diagnosis sequence for one of the codes its throwing).

Is it spiking when it is idling? If so it is a ground wire problem I bet. Otherwise, if it is doing it when you let off the gas (driving) that is normal. If that is the case, then the latency just needs increased a tad to bring the trims inline (or rescale the lower portion of the MAF), but IIRC, you did that already. If you are throwing codes that is probably not it at all. Even without adjusting latency, on 750's, 650's, etc I never would see a code thrown (but fuel trims would be at +20-25%). Heck, my front O2 works fine. I even re-soldered that ripped wire and it is fine. Anyway, if you need to borrow my WBO2, let me know.

gabedude
07-17-08, 11:43 AM
I have an LM-1 as well that I use for road tunes.

You have to see my homemade LC1 portable. :D

XPT Tuning
07-17-08, 11:48 AM
You have to see my homemade LC1 portable. :D

Bring it this weekend, I want to see some ghetto fab!

gabedude
07-17-08, 11:50 AM
Bring it this weekend, I want to see some ghetto fab!

I will. I usually bring my tuning rig to these meets in case someone wants a free Stage 1/2 open source map flash (your free maps or mine).

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 11:55 AM
Is it spiking when it is idling? If so it is a ground wire problem I bet. Otherwise, if it is doing it when you let off the gas (driving) that is normal. If that is the case, then the latency just needs increased a tad to bring the trims inline (or rescale the lower portion of the MAF), but IIRC, you did that already. If you are throwing codes that is probably not it at all. Even without adjusting latency, on 750's, 650's, etc I never would see a code thrown (but fuel trims would be at +20-25%). Heck, my front O2 works fine. I even re-soldered that ripped wire and it is fine. Anyway, if you need to borrow my WBO2, let me know.

You have seen what it was doing a few months ago when you were riding in my car. It is throwing codes. I will be doing a WOT run and it will be running 11.8 then just spike to 20.44 and then sit there, it will also just sit there idling at 14.7 and then spike to 20.44. I need to run through the diagnosis steps in the shop manual to see where the problem is, if I can even trace it. I am thinking of throwing the stock fuel pump back in and see if the fuel pump is the issue.

gabedude
07-17-08, 12:11 PM
You have seen what it was doing a few months ago when you were riding in my car. It is throwing codes. I will be doing a WOT run and it will be running 11.8 then just spike to 20.44 and then sit there, it will also just sit there idling at 14.7 and then spike to 20.44. I need to run through the diagnosis steps in the shop manual to see where the problem is, if I can even trace it. I am thinking of throwing the stock fuel pump back in and see if the fuel pump is the issue.

Yeah but the WBO2 was showing good numbers, dead on fueling at WOT. Plus if you were doing WOT runs and you ever spike to 20.44 in reality, the car would fall on its face and crack the ringlands. I don't think it is the FP, but it doesn't hurt to hook up a fuel pressure gauge. If you throw the stock FP back in make sure to change your scaler back and latency. Also, look at the fuel filter if you remove the pump. It may be dirty. Have you tried using a voltmeter (circuit tester function) on the front O2 harness to see if the ground wire has continuity?

scby rex
07-17-08, 05:10 PM
Im in, is steve goin yet?

sti_kris
07-17-08, 05:46 PM
i think steve is.

hey bobby bring a fp for me when you come out. i'll just get it from you then.

BANKAI
07-17-08, 07:47 PM
I might go...just dont' know if i gotta work on sunday or not..ugh!

FlyingPerformance
07-17-08, 08:50 PM
hey bobby bring a fp for me when you come out. i'll just get it from you then.

Will do. You want a BCS kit as well? You gotta get a tune for it though, but if you are running open source its all of 2 minutes to change the WGDC numbers down about 15%.

gabedude
07-18-08, 04:49 AM
Of several BCS's that I have tuned, no one really matches up to another. You do not want to mess with boost unless you can do several pulls and dial in correct WGDC settings and TD settings. It's not just plug it in and go. Now, if you already have a map that supports that BCS and turbocharger (running the same boost curve), the WGDC and TD settings could be kept the same. A 10% reduction in WGDC on a 20G is very different than a 10% reduction on a VF39 and since the tables are in WGDC%, this is important to remember. You can tune boost without a WBO2 though as long as you keep your current boost targets. But yes, it doesn't take long, however it will take a few WOT pulls.

sti_kris
07-18-08, 05:02 AM
yeah i'll take the kit too. i'm not open sourced but i'll be getting a tune soon so i'll wait till them to do it all.

sti_kris
07-18-08, 05:03 AM
how much we talking for the kit tho, send me a pm.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 05:14 AM
Of several BCS's that I have tuned, no one really matches up to another. You do not want to mess with boost unless you can do several pulls and dial in correct WGDC settings and TD settings. It's not just plug it in and go. Now, if you already have a map that supports that BCS and turbocharger (running the same boost curve), the WGDC and TD settings could be kept the same. A 10% reduction in WGDC on a 20G is very different than a 10% reduction on a VF39 and since the tables are in WGDC%, this is important to remember. You can tune boost without a WBO2 though as long as you keep your current boost targets. But yes, it doesn't take long, however it will take a few WOT pulls.

Well, you know what I meant Gabe, didnt have to get all technical about it. It took me 3 pulls to get mine dialed in after swapping it.

gabedude
07-18-08, 05:18 AM
Well, you know what I meant Gabe, didnt have to get all technical about it. It took me 3 pulls to get mine dialed in after swapping it.

It kinda sounded like you said, just remove 15% and flash it. Just clearing up confusion. Didn't I tune your BCS when you installed it or did you have it there? That week I had 4 tunes after work and most of them had a different BCS than stock, I just don't remember.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 05:21 AM
no, I tuned my BCS. I think my final numbers were close to 15% off of what you had already had set up for WGDC. I didnt mess with my TD numbers at all though. He is running an AP though so no way to tune quickly anyway.

gabedude
07-18-08, 05:37 AM
Yeah thats right. Like I said that week I did 4 tunes, so I am going from memory. 2 of them had aftermarket BCS, one had an MBC. If you only needed to reduce WGDC 15%, then TD could be ok stock. Also, I set init and max WGDC pretty close so TD is not as big of a deal.

XPT Tuning
07-18-08, 05:47 AM
I've had good results with minor TD changes when upgrading turbos on 32-bit. 16-bit required a lot of change. The GM BCS has been rock solid for me through 5 turbos.

gabedude
07-18-08, 06:03 AM
I hate tuning the boost on the 16 bit ECUs. I almost always recommend an MBC/EBC for those guys (unless the person wants me to tune it with the stock boost control logic). I never can seem to get rock solid boost without overboosting at least 1-2 PSI. The 32 bit ECUs are great with aftermarket BCS's though. ;)

gabedude
07-18-08, 06:51 AM
So are we gonna BBQ or what? Anyone have ideas?

BTW, make sure to bring a paper cup or a plastic cup to put your beer in. Beer cans and beer bottles (of course glass is not allowed) are not supposed to be visible on the lake (they can give you some kind of ticket or some crap). I can't believe that that law passed in Travis county. Like it is going to stop the amount of alcohol consumed at the lake. Jeez.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 07:07 AM
dont care, what time are we doing this?

I gotta look at my car some more. I am actually in Austin this morning, heading back to work. I spent some time trying to go over my car with the multi-meter, like the shop manual steps say, and some how I ****ed it up worse. Now it doesnt even think the damn sensor is plugged in and is constantly reading 14.7:1. Maybe I didnt get something seated back properly on the ECU, but I dont have time this morning to **** with it any more. **** THIS CAR. I think I may take Dave's suggestion and put the stock downpipe back on, borrow an STI TMIC(can I borrow Tess's for a few days, she can use the TurboXS one) and the stock air box, flash it back to stock and take it to the dealership and say fix it.

gabedude
07-18-08, 07:26 AM
We plan on meeting up at noon at the HEB. It is reading 14.7:1 now? Log AFC #1 and AFL #1. If AFC is moving around a bit, then it is working now. Intermittent shorts are hard to find.

You'd have to ask Tess about using her TMIC. ;)

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 07:28 AM
no its showing 14.7:1, not changing at all, I drove it around and even under boost its stuck at 14.7:1 and its throwing a code(code pops up 30 seconds after ECU reset). Dont know what code, dont have a code scanner. I think I am gonna drive my car off a cliff.

gabedude
07-18-08, 07:39 AM
That must be the default. Did you monitor open loop. closed loop status? I bet it is at 7 (error open loop). You'll be fine without the front O2 for a bit. At least it won't learn to run so damn rich, but without AFC, your idle prolly sucks. It is a small issue (but obviously hard to diagnose and fix). If it was my car (since you have a new front O2) I would just buy a new harness for the O2 sensor and route it. Trust me, I know what it feels like to want to drive the car off of a cliff lol. I wanted to push mine off for the longest time. I am hoping that these forged dropins last a good bit now. We will see.

Hell I ripped a coolant line last night. I did find the atmospheric pressure sensor (it is inside the valve that attaches to the head which attaches to the smog pump). I still need to get some air out of my power steering and charge the AC.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 07:43 AM
You cant just get a new harness for the o2 sensor, it is all integrated into the ECU wiring harness. There is only a plug between the actual o2 sensor and the main wiring harness, no other harnesses to be changed, unless I change the whole ECU wiring harness. I think I am just gonna return it to stock and take it up to the dealership(even if I have to pay for it). Yea it idles fine for about 30 seconds, then the CEL pops up and the idle goes to ****.

gabedude
07-18-08, 07:48 AM
Well, that sucks. Hopefully it won't be too outrageous if they charge you. You would think that the problem has to be at the connector. It started occurring when you put those headers on.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 08:39 AM
Yea, but then I took them off, put the stock manifold back on, and changed the o2 sensor. I am just gonna take it to Billy and say fix it. Hopefully it is something stupid.

gabedude
07-18-08, 09:12 AM
Hopefully. It has to be a short that was intermittent now you have made it a solid short. At least there is discontinuity in the circuit all the time now. Now where that discontinuity is located at is the hard part. If it is in the ECU (say a resistor or something), then that's not good. Hopefully it is just a shorted wire against the chassis.

FlyingPerformance
07-18-08, 01:12 PM
If its in the ECU, I am getting the AEM(I am probably gonna get it anyway, just wanna get this sorted before I put in a new piece of hardware). I am gonna release the wires from the plug on the chassis side of the harness and see if one of them has broken inside the plug, its not hard to pull that plug off, its the same type of plug as the one I remove for the EBCS kits. I will probably do that sunday morning and check it out. I didnt even think of that this morning since I was short on time.

gabedude
07-19-08, 04:23 PM
Ok we washed the cars today, I fixed my coolant and power steering problem. Ready to go for tomorrow.

Tess's car:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/tessawidmer/DSC01332.jpg

My car (100 miles on new motor):
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/tessawidmer/DSC01337.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/tessawidmer/DSC01340.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/tessawidmer/DSC01342.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r164/tessawidmer/DSC01344.jpg

FlyingPerformance
07-19-08, 05:59 PM
bump for my car being broke. Its not the plugs, pulled each wire out tonight and checked them, no broke wires in the plugs at least. I guess its up to the dealership I go.

gabedude
07-19-08, 07:09 PM
Well that sucks. We are bringing both cars and our child. ;)

sti_kris
07-19-08, 07:16 PM
i'll be there. car is going to be dirty because i am not waking up early enough to clean it before we go.

FlyingPerformance
07-19-08, 09:23 PM
Well that sucks.

Yea, gonna take it to georgotown subaru on monday and see what they will do before I return it to stock.

on another note. I am gonna trade my stock turbo back for an invidia downpipe and cobb catback plus some cash. I am gonna most likely sell both(for sure the downpipe) and get the greddy evo2. If I like how the cobb sounds, I will get the 2.5" taper taken out and use it, if not, sale and greddy evo2 FTW.

FlyingPerformance
07-19-08, 09:23 PM
i'll be there. car is going to be dirty because i am not waking up early enough to clean it before we go.

Dont worry, my car is gonna be dirty AND have a CEL and cruise light flashing.

scby rex
07-20-08, 05:57 AM
I guess mine will be the only clean one then.

KoreanComet
07-20-08, 06:02 AM
i'll wash mine lol i'll be washing it right now.. leaving

gabedude
07-20-08, 07:56 AM
We are off to drop the kid off at the sitter (sitter came through). Meet ya'll at HEB.

JackThisNot
07-20-08, 03:02 PM
so how was the meet? sorry i could not make it. had Staff Duty sat and have been out of it most of 2day. hope there are some good pics that get posted.

STIFun
07-20-08, 03:11 PM
Damm I missed this drive when is the next one I really wanted to attend.

sti_kris
07-20-08, 05:59 PM
it was fun, gabe thought it would be a great idea to tear down nameless with half the group no knowing the road. lol.

not sure when the next one will be we'll let ya know tho

tess
07-20-08, 05:59 PM
I had a fun time. Good to see you guys it's been too long. Dave... you dead fish tossing asshole. ;)
I'm burnt, but not crying about it like Taylor.

BANKAI
07-20-08, 06:10 PM
wish i could of been there =(

gabedude
07-20-08, 06:17 PM
Nice to see you guys

Josh
Braden
Kris
Dave
Bobby
Thomas (poor dead fish)
Taylor
Alex

and everyone else who I forgot their names already. ;)

Had a damn good time and driving down the backroads and rally roads (at the lake, nice donut Bobby BTW) was definitely the cure for my ills. :D

KoreanComet
07-20-08, 06:24 PM
yeah you missed out another josh, mike and matt lol

gabedude
07-20-08, 07:13 PM
Haha. Thats kinda like me. I saw Josh (hadn't seen him in about a yr) and said nice to meet you. "Hey you tuned my car dude!" "Oh yah!" LOL.

Who had the EVO?

scby rex
07-20-08, 07:33 PM
Mike, the other Joshs brother (the tall ones)

gabedude
07-21-08, 04:59 AM
Oh ok. I'll get everyone's name right someday.

So who has pics? I neglected to take any. I guess Dave is still passed out drunk. Oh wait he is at the airport, hungover.

FlyingPerformance
07-21-08, 05:18 AM
I guess Dave is still passed out drunk. Oh wait he is at the airport, hungover.

That was yesterday morning he had to do that, not this morning. We had been at woodrows on Saturday night when he realized he had to do that on Sunday morning.

gabedude
07-21-08, 05:39 AM
That was yesterday morning he had to do that, not this morning. We had been at woodrows on Saturday night when he realized he had to do that on Sunday morning.

He must be passed out then.

XPT Tuning
07-21-08, 05:53 AM
http://xpttuning.com/xptstore/images/xpt/xpt/lake1.jpg
http://xpttuning.com/xptstore/images/xpt/xpt/lake2.jpg
http://xpttuning.com/xptstore/images/xpt/xpt/lake3.jpg

gabedude
07-21-08, 06:08 AM
Nice, on the first and second pic we have:

Braden, Bobby, Kris, Gabe, Tess's cars.

I want to see the pics Dave took of all the cars at the lake. :D

I know most people didn't like the rocky rally road, but hey, we have rally cars. ;)

I got some nasty looks leaving by bystanders as I hauled ass going sideways now and again leaving (dodging rocks lol). I think I blasted down that thing at 50 or so. That was fun. :D

scby rex
07-21-08, 03:57 PM
my speedo didnt even read when I left, I was crawling. Then washed my car the minute I got home..hhahahah
No pics of my car? I know Josh took some.

sti_kris
07-21-08, 07:26 PM
on my way home i stopped and sprayed it off. lol i was like my car isn't going to be dirty all week long

Otherguy
07-21-08, 08:30 PM
I Demand Pictures!

sti_kris
07-21-08, 08:41 PM
next trip... no flying fish.

gabedude
07-22-08, 04:38 AM
next trip... no flying fish.

Lol. I threw it at Dave and missed, then he threw it at Thomas and it made him bleed!