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Old 08-02-19, 07:29 AM   #111
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker128 View Post
Sad state of Subaru. They have potential customers willing to spend more to be competitive to RS3/TTRS/CLA45/M2. Those cars are all in the 400hp range and can be 500whp with light bolt on/tune.

2020 Subaru WRX STI, Next Generation 2021 STI Details Leaked - YouTube
It'll be interesting to see what Subaru does with the pricing of the S209. I've heard rumors that the MSRP will be around $65k. As you mentioned, that puts its 341 hp engine up against a lot of faster cars (M2, GT350, new 416 hp AMG 45s, RS3, etc.). Not to mention, the new game changer C8 Corvette.. At least it's a limited production model and is the only car out of the group that comes with AWD, 4 doors & a manual transmission. It'll certainly struggle to be competitive in that price range. The next gen STI really has its work cut out for it.

Hopefully the next gen will have the FA24 with stronger internals, a larger twin scroll ball bearing turbo, and dual injection (like the BRZ - for power in higher rpms & reducing carbon buildup). It'll need at least 350-400 hp to stay relevant. The FA20s respond really well to flex fuel and can easily reach 350-400whp with bolt ons, but that starts pushing the limit of their rods. Hopefully the next gen STI will be able to push ~450whp with e85, full bolt ons & a tune.. but only time will tell. Subaru has really kept their plans a secret.. hopefully that doesn't mean the next gen is even further away.
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Old 08-02-19, 08:11 AM   #112
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Subaru is always super secretive though and drops new gen cars out of nowhere especially with the STI but weird not to see any on nurburgring yet

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Old 08-02-19, 08:14 AM   #113
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by STINick19 View Post
It'll be interesting to see what Subaru does with the pricing of the S209. I've heard rumors that the MSRP will be around $65k. As you mentioned, that puts its 341 hp engine up against a lot of faster cars (M2, GT350, new 416 hp AMG 45s, RS3, etc.). Not to mention, the new game changer C8 Corvette.. At least it's a limited production model and is the only car out of the group that comes with AWD, 4 doors & a manual transmission. It'll certainly struggle to be competitive in that price range. The next gen STI really has its work cut out for it.
The thing with the S209 is it's exclusivity. I see all those cars you mentioned an nearly a daily basis. Everyone is flipping out over the new Vette, but just wait and see, they will be as common as a Mustang before too long @ 60 grand.

You can still have a shit ton of fun with 341 HP.
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Old 08-02-19, 09:28 AM   #114
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

I'll never understand why anyone who is actually concerned about exclusivity would ever have their eyes on any car in STINKs [ ] list let alone a Subaru.

Yeah, I know your not the only one to use that term here. Seen it for RA.s and gray something or others and whatever . . .

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Old 08-02-19, 11:14 AM   #115
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

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STINKs

Subaru, Toyota, Infinity, Nissan, Kia?
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Old 08-02-19, 11:52 AM   #116
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by b18c5rjdm View Post
The thing with the S209 is it's exclusivity. I see all those cars you mentioned an nearly a daily basis. Everyone is flipping out over the new Vette, but just wait and see, they will be as common as a Mustang before too long @ 60 grand.

You can still have a shit ton of fun with 341 HP.
You must live in a really nice area to see those on a daily basis

I understand the exclusivity and that people will pay that much for a limited edition.. but it's not that much different than a regular STI (or even a WRX for non-car people). I'm sure the S209s will sell out immediately, but I personally can't justify spending $60k+ for a Subaru.. unless it was like the 22B where it was as fast as most supercars during its era.

I'm not a Chevrolet/Corvette fan, but I'm still impressed that they've built a budget, mid-engine car that will compete with exotics for < $60k.
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Old 08-02-19, 04:55 PM   #117
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemanfor View Post
all of those cars you listed MSRP for well above what an STi does. at least in the US

RS3 MSRP $56,200
TTRS MSRP $66,900
CLA45 $53,100
BMW M2 $58,900

none of them, besides the CLA45 AMG, use a 4 cylinder engine. and the AMG engine is hand crafted
And to add none of them with the exception of the BMW come in manual transmission
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Old 08-03-19, 10:35 AM   #118
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

He skipped over reading this lol

Quote:
They have potential customers willing to spend more to be competitive to RS3/TTRS/CLA45/M2. Those cars are all in the 400hp range and can be 500whp with light bolt on/tune.
Everyone knows STI competiion Golf R, Ford SHO, V6 CaMrY/MiNi VaNs.
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Old 08-03-19, 02:48 PM   #119
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemanfor View Post
all of those cars you listed MSRP for well above what an STi does. at least in the US

RS3 MSRP $56,200
TTRS MSRP $66,900
CLA45 $53,100
BMW M2 $58,900

none of them, besides the CLA45 AMG, use a 4 cylinder engine. and the AMG engine is hand crafted
That's true, the STI is cheaper than the other cars mentioned. It's avoided price inflation and has held its base price pretty well compared to other vehicles. Granted they've been using the same general powertrain for 15 years so that probably helps cut their costs. But in 2004, the STI would have been competitive against the equivalent models of those cars.

2004 STI
MSRP ~$32k
300 HP @ 6000 rpm (@ 14.5 psi)
300 LB-FT @ 4000 rpm
0-60 mph: 4.6 sec
5-60 mph: 5.8 sec
1/4 mile: 13.2 sec
Skidpad: 0.90 G
Braking: 60-0 111 ft (70-0 166 ft)
Curb weight: 3260 lbs
LB/HP: 10.87

2019 STI
MSRP ~$37k
310 HP @ 6000 rpm (@ 16.2 psi)
290 LB-FT @ 4000-5200 rpm
0-60 mph: 5.4-5.7 sec
5-60 mpg: 6.9 sec
1/4 mile: 13.9 sec
Skidpad: 0.93 G
Braking: 60-0 109 ft (70-0 158 ft)
Curb weight: 3446 lbs
LB/HP: 11.12

As you can see, the new STI is worse in almost every way on the spec sheet. The appeal of the STI in the '00s was that it competed with much more expensive cars with bigger engines. Its performance hasn't changed much over the last 15 years while other cars have gotten much faster. Sure, the safety, interior, ride quality, and handling have improved, but it actually accelerates slower due to the added weight (almost 200 lbs).

The 2004 STI had performance numbers that were quite impressive for its time. For reference:
  • A 2004 Mustang GT had 260 HP/302 LB-FT, 0-60 in ~6 sec, and 1/4 mile in high 14s. The 2019 Mustang GT has 460 HP/420 LB-FT, 0-60 in 3.9 sec, and 1/4 mile in high 11s. The '04 STI was closer in performance to the more powerful & expensive Mustang Cobra "Terminator" (supercharged v8) in terms of 0-60 & 1/4 mile times. Now the STI is more on par with the cheaper Mustang EcoBoost (turbo 4)..
  • The '04 STI was very similar in performance to the M3 of the time. Now the BMW M2 Comp does 0-60 in 4.0 sec and 1/4 mile in 12.4 sec.
I think some would pay more for a STI that was more competitive performance-wise. I think a large part of the problem is that Subaru doesn't feel a need to spend the money and make any real performance improvements. People are still buying the STI, it accounts for a very low portion of their sales, and it has no direct competition with the Evo & Focus RS out of the picture. The CTR is better in almost every way, but it's FWD and over-styled (IMO). And loyal Subaru enthusiasts are willing to pay $50k+ for limited editions that are marginally faster. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Subaru is finally offering the S209 in the US, but I wouldn't pay $60k+ for it.

Disclaimer:
A performance spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story.. anyone who's ever driven a Miata knows this. But the specs are important to a lot of buyers and can ultimately influence them to purchase a car (sometimes even prior to test driving it) because they feel like they're getting more. They want the "best" or "fastest" car and don't care about the driving experience (or practicality).

I love my '19 STI and the raw, mechanical driving feel that it offers. That, combined with its practicality, is largely why I bought it. There aren't many cars left that offer this experience, especially as a package with AWD, 4 doors, and a manual transmission. The only other car left in that segment is the Golf R.. and most prefer that with the DSG. The manual transmission is a dying breed because they're slower, people are lazy and electric cars are the way of the future.

Anyways, sorry for rambling. We won't see any real performance changes for the 2020 model. We'll have to wait and see what the 2021 STI brings. Hopefully it's at least as fast as the S209, but with a smaller price tag.

Last edited by STINick19; 08-03-19 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 08-03-19, 06:12 PM   #120
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Default Re: 2020 STi Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by STINick19 View Post
That's true, the STI is cheaper than the other cars mentioned. It's avoided price inflation and has held its base price pretty well compared to other vehicles. Granted they've been using the same general powertrain for 15 years so that probably helps cut their costs. But in 2004, the STI would have been competitive against the equivalent models of those cars.

2004 STI
MSRP ~$32k
300 HP @ 6000 rpm (@ 14.5 psi)
300 LB-FT @ 4000 rpm
0-60 mph: 4.6 sec
5-60 mph: 5.8 sec
1/4 mile: 13.2 sec
Skidpad: 0.90 G
Braking: 60-0 111 ft (70-0 166 ft)
Curb weight: 3260 lbs
LB/HP: 10.87

2019 STI
MSRP ~$37k
310 HP @ 6000 rpm (@ 16.2 psi)
290 LB-FT @ 4000-5200 rpm
0-60 mph: 5.4-5.7 sec
5-60 mpg: 6.9 sec
1/4 mile: 13.9 sec
Skidpad: 0.93 G
Braking: 60-0 109 ft (70-0 158 ft)
Curb weight: 3446 lbs
LB/HP: 11.12

As you can see, the new STI is worse in almost every way on the spec sheet. The appeal of the STI in the '00s was that it competed with much more expensive cars with bigger engines. Its performance hasn't changed much over the last 15 years while other cars have gotten much faster. Sure, the safety, interior, ride quality, and handling have improved, but it actually accelerates slower due to the added weight (almost 200 lbs).

The 2004 STI had performance numbers that were quite impressive for its time. For reference:
  • A 2004 Mustang GT had 260 HP/302 LB-FT, 0-60 in ~6 sec, and 1/4 mile in high 14s. The 2019 Mustang GT has 460 HP/420 LB-FT, 0-60 in 3.9 sec, and 1/4 mile in high 11s. The '04 STI was closer in performance to the more powerful & expensive Mustang Cobra "Terminator" (supercharged v8) in terms of 0-60 & 1/4 mile times. Now the STI is more on par with the cheaper Mustang EcoBoost (turbo 4)..
  • The '04 STI was very similar in performance to the M3 of the time. Now the BMW M2 Comp does 0-60 in 4.0 sec and 1/4 mile in 12.4 sec.
I think some would pay more for a STI that was more competitive performance-wise. I think a large part of the problem is that Subaru doesn't feel a need to spend the money and make any real performance improvements. People are still buying the STI, it accounts for a very low portion of their sales, and it has no direct competition with the Evo & Focus RS out of the picture. The CTR is better in almost every way, but it's FWD and over-styled (IMO). And loyal Subaru enthusiasts are willing to pay $50k+ for limited editions that are marginally faster. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Subaru is finally offering the S209 in the US, but I wouldn't pay $60k+ for it.

Disclaimer:
A performance spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story.. anyone who's ever driven a Miata knows this. But the specs are important to a lot of buyers and can ultimately influence them to purchase a car (sometimes even prior to test driving it) because they feel like they're getting more. They want the "best" or "fastest" car and don't care about the driving experience (or practicality).

I love my '19 STI and the raw, mechanical driving feel that it offers. That, combined with its practicality, is largely why I bought it. There aren't many cars left that offer this experience, especially as a package with AWD, 4 doors, and a manual transmission. The only other car left in that segment is the Golf R.. and most prefer that with the DSG. The manual transmission is a dying breed because they're slower, people are lazy and electric cars are the way of the future.

Anyways, sorry for rambling. We won't see any real performance changes for the 2020 model. We'll have to wait and see what the 2021 STI brings. Hopefully it's at least as fast as the S209, but with a smaller price tag.
I'm astonished by those stats... It's hard for me to remember how much more impressive the STI was compared to the competition when it first came to the US.

Also, how do I "like" a post? is that functionality that will be unlocked after a certain number of posts?
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