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Oil temps way high after header install
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Old 03-28-19, 10:33 PM   #41
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

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Originally Posted by SubySal View Post
Danny, it might be easier to use an IR thermometer to test the sensor in place instead of messing with boiling water and such.

I ran the road course at PPIR a couple years ago and my temps peaked at 245ºF with the Killer B pan, baffle, pickup. That was with my old gauges, but as far as I know the oil temp at least was accurate. I do think the pan is totally worth it even for the time attack series. The track has way more grip than your typical autocross surface and the corners are generally longer. My temps there peak at about 225-230ºF.
Would the IR thermometer work though with the sensor actually inside the pan? I'm imagining the exterior part of the sensor would be a lower temp.

That's another thing that had me thinking about the pan. I've heard from Gladu and a few others that well-prepped STU cars can be in the danger zone even just on an autocross course. I usually do 8-10 autocross days per year, most of the time attacks, and a good 5-6 track days on top of that. I'd say probably 20+ motorsport type events per season.
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Old 03-28-19, 11:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

The oil and pan should be very close in temperature. If the sensor is brass it too should be the same temp as the oil. Rubber's an insulator and even so with tires if you don't get a probe in right away the temps are quick to equalize. It might be a few degrees difference, but shouldn't be way off especially if the car is stopped and no air is flowing over the pan or sensor.

I personally think the stock oiling is good for nothing beyond some spirited driving. So yea fast driver's can drive past stock oiling capabilities on an autocross course. Chris had the Killer B pan on this last engine. The engine failed because of some new screwy octane rules that had just been implemented in ST and he was trying to stay legal. That led to detonation and it lunched #4 I think.

The engine before that however was lost to oil starvation. I believe it happened at Spring Nats a few years ago. He said there was a pretty long sweeper and that did it in. I think he had a Killer B pick up, but didn't have the pan at that point because it was not yet legal in STU. Since installing the Killer B pan Spring Nats hasn't been an issue. Though I haven't asked if there were corners similar to the one that gave him trouble before.
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Old 03-29-19, 02:49 AM   #43
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

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Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I'm curious though... if the Oil Control Valve would eliminate the issue of G's pushing oil, wouldn't that be the best solution even on a non-racecar? Or does the OEM pan have other ways in which it falls short?
Well, not really. The oil control valve actuates ~1.45Gs. On the street you're not going to see this unless you're running a fairly non-street-legal setup. Oil doesn't start to push out the breather ports until ~1.6Gs (track/conditions dependent). So in short, if you had the OCV on a street car it just wouldn't activate ever. So in my opinion you'd be better off spending that money on more worthwhile mods.

We have them installed on several track dedicated race cars with documented +1.8Gs sustained, and all the issues with pushing oil out the breather ports has gone away with the OCV in place. This is really the environment they were designed and intended for.

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BTW... I like the description of the Oil Control Valve on your website Kudos for not pushing racecar parts on those who don't need them.
I think being an engineer I have a natural aversion to sales and marketing BS, and also have an affinity for efficiency. This sometimes comes out in the form of 'if it's not something that provides proven value, performance, longevity, etc., then it's wasted effort/money'. I think telling some one they need a part, when they truly don't, is just a slimy way of doing business.
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Old 03-29-19, 03:24 AM   #44
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

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Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
I think being an engineer I have a natural aversion to sales and marketing BS, and also have an affinity for efficiency. This sometimes comes out in the form of 'if it's not something that provides proven value, performance, longevity, etc., then it's wasted effort/money'. I think telling some one they need a part, when they truly don't, is just a slimy way of doing business.

FWIW, your business practices (and quality engineering) are what makes choosing your parts over other options an easy choice. I'm also an engineer with a severe aversion towards marketing BS (and strong admiration for efficient and elegantly simple solutions).
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Old 03-29-19, 07:19 AM   #45
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Brapp, do you go to HPR?
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Old 03-29-19, 09:20 AM   #46
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubySal View Post
The oil and pan should be very close in temperature. If the sensor is brass it too should be the same temp as the oil. Rubber's an insulator and even so with tires if you don't get a probe in right away the temps are quick to equalize. It might be a few degrees difference, but shouldn't be way off especially if the car is stopped and no air is flowing over the pan or sensor.
Thats a good point for the thermometer. I think I'll give that a try. Been wanting one of those anyways for tires... good excuse I guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport
Well, not really. The oil control valve actuates ~1.45Gs. On the street you're not going to see this unless you're running a fairly non-street-legal setup. Oil doesn't start to push out the breather ports until ~1.6Gs (track/conditions dependent). So in short, if you had the OCV on a street car it just wouldn't activate ever. So in my opinion you'd be better off spending that money on more worthwhile mods.

We have them installed on several track dedicated race cars with documented +1.8Gs sustained, and all the issues with pushing oil out the breather ports has gone away with the OCV in place. This is really the environment they were designed and intended for.
Gotcha... so if I'm reading you right, the valve helps with a different G-force related oil starvation issue than the pan. I was thinking they accomplished the same task in different ways. But I suppose the pan helps with keeping enough oil at the oil pickup? If the OCV is to keep oil from getting pushed out the breather ports... yeah that seems a bit extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leemanfor
Brapp, do you go to HPR?
Only made it out there for the first time last year for a Track Night in America event. Loved it though... definitely planning on going there a few times this year. Most of my track days have been at La Junta or at WHP/Bondurant down in Phoenix.

HPR mid-summer was actually when I really realized I needed to start with cooling and reliability mods with the car. I was running in the advanced group and could only really go about 10 minutes before I had to back off and take some cooldown laps to let brakes and coolant cool back down. Oil wasn't at the point of backing off yet, but was sitting right at 250 at that point as well. And that was an evening event with like 75 degree temps too.

Last edited by brapp; 03-29-19 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 03-29-19, 05:34 PM   #47
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

I'm not an engineer, but I play one on TV.

Dan, The IR thermometer will work, but it's not the best way to track tire temps. A tire pyrometer works much better, but even with that you almost need someone right off the course ready to stick your tires to get accurate temps. By the time you get back to grid they will have already started to equalize.
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Old 03-31-19, 10:37 AM   #48
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

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Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I was thinking they accomplished the same task in different ways. But I suppose the pan helps with keeping enough oil at the oil pickup?
So the pan increasses capacity and is deeper, which essentially means you can take harder corners and for longer periods of time. At around 1.6Gs the oil level in the outside facing head increases to the oint where it overwhelms the head breather port baffle and as a result oil makes it way our of the port. When oil leaves the crankcase in this fashion, it reduces the amount of oil (level) available in the sump and starvation can occur. With the Oil Control Valve closing the breather port, the level in the sump does not continue to drop.


If you were to observe an AOS (or catch can) during manuvers that produce ~1.6Gs lateral loads, you would see oil filling and emptying the AOS as the lateral loads are applied and removed. Everytime the AOS has oil put into it (say it holds a quart), then that oil is not available in the sump, and the level the pickup can pull from is lower. Eventually, low enough to cause funelling (intermitent starvation) or complete starvation. If oil is never allowed to leave the crankcase, then the oil level in the sump will never drop low enough to cause starvation.
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Old 05-13-19, 08:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

So, update. I'm starting to run out of thoughts at this point.

I've wrapped the sensor wire in Fire Shield and DEI Heat Tape, I've wrapped the oil filter in DEI's new oil filter heat wrap. Added Killer B pan and Beatrush undertray (both primarily for reasons other than oil temps, but both should help). I used a high end IR thermometer with help from Harvey at The Boost Creep, it reads the temperature right at the sensor as within 5-8 degrees of what the sensor is reading.

I tried a track day. Went to La Junta Raceway... a pretty small track that I've never had any sort of cooling issues before. I hit 260 oil temps within 3-4 hot laps... which was under 5 minutes of going at full pace.

The next day was a local track's Time Attack series. It's more or less a large autocross run by connecting different infield sections together with cones. Laps were right about 60 seconds in 2nd and 3rd gear. Two back-to-back runs with a couple minute cooldown in between got the oil up over 250.

So... I'm kinda at a loss. According to everyone on this thread, the headers shouldn't be causing the oil to get hot. But I'm pretty much completely out of ideas other than that.
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Old 05-13-19, 08:43 PM   #50
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

I was going to suggest insulation between the header and the pan.
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