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Oil temps way high after header install
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Old 03-28-19, 03:36 AM   #31
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

As killer b already mentioned, radiant heat from a header will NOT affect oil temperatures. Air is a terrible conductor and the gap is way to big.

If you had the car tuned after installing the header, my money is on the tune running hotter.
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Old 03-28-19, 04:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I imagine that if I were to heat a pot of water to a known temperature and then test if the sensor reads that temperature... that would be a good test?
Yes. It is a 2 wire sensor? You can most likely measure a resistance at a fixed temperature. Two points are better, freezing (use a glass of water and ice that has sit for a bit.) and boiling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
In any case though... I really don't think it was the sensor. . . .
The biggest thing that I've noticed with the temps is how they follow driving conditions. Oddly enough... the temps seem to be highest when I'm cruising for long periods of time under mild, consistent load. Say about 0 boost, minimal to 0 vacuum, 3k ish RPM. Like climbing a prolonged hill at the speed limit. They actually stay a lot lower when I'm getting into boost more, say like having fun on a windy road. Lots of hard pulls in a row will make them climb, of course.

Also odd... the temps don't seem to be very affected by temperature. 60ish degrees ambient is giving similar temps to 30 degrees ambient.
To prove to yourself it not "air" related you could trigger you fans when its reading hot to insure there is air flow and maintain the conditions otherwise. See if temp changes and how fast.

But I'm with Awenthol. This sounds more like tune.

Without re-reading, you installed the header with or without re-tuning? Was the tune a "pro-tune"? I hate that term. Sounds as if this is under closed loop. Do you have an A/F gauge? Hot is generally lean?
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Old 03-28-19, 07:21 AM   #33
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
It's definitely a good track mod insurance policy. As far as oil temps, it's not substitute for a remote oil cooler, but does generally bring temps down ~5-15°f. These cars run fairly cold oil temps compared to most other turbo cars out there. Remote coolers are needed far less often unless you are track only, high HP, and in the southern states. Often times necessity requires more than one of these conditions to occur.

If you track and use a high quality synthetic, 250°f is when to keep a watchful eye and 260°f is when it's time to take a cool down lap. My personal sweet spot for our engines (and even OEM engines), the oils we use, and the conditions we see, is ~220°-240°.
I'd been considering the pan mostly from everything I've heard about the possibility of lateral loads on track causing oil starvation. But dropping the temps would be a good side benefit too. Not sure how to tell if I'm in a danger zone with oil starvation, but I think I might be getting close.

Funny enough, I was already planning on an external oil cooler this year. My car is not high HP or track only but last season I was pretty consistently hitting 250 during 20 minute sessions. Almost entirely on tracks in Colorado with a couple days in Phoenix in late November.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mheyman
Yes. It is a 2 wire sensor? You can most likely measure a resistance at a fixed temperature. Two points are better, freezing (use a glass of water and ice that has sit for a bit.) and boiling.
Gotcha. I do believe it's a 2 wire... I can check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awenthol
If you had the car tuned after installing the header, my money is on the tune running hotter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mheyman
Without re-reading, you installed the header with or without re-tuning? Was the tune a "pro-tune"? I hate that term. Sounds as if this is under closed loop. Do you have an A/F gauge? Hot is generally lean?
That's an interesting idea. The car was retuned after the header was installed. The car had previously been dyno tuned by CamTuning down in Albuquerque... he cancelled on me the night before the tune appointment this time around so I got it e-tuned by Eric at Torqued Performance.

I do have a wideband AFR gauge. It does seem to run fairly lean (14s) until boost comes on. Goes quite rich at WOT, usually 10.4-10.8. I've seen 10.2 a few times in higher gears.
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Old 03-28-19, 08:43 AM   #34
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

So normal AFR.

You have to start with something you know is good and work from there.
I'd start with the sensor. If bad, all this is moot.
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Old 03-28-19, 09:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I'd been considering the pan mostly from everything I've heard about the possibility of lateral loads on track causing oil starvation. But dropping the temps would be a good side benefit too. Not sure how to tell if I'm in a danger zone with oil starvation, but I think I might be getting close.
What I tell people is that if you're doing only an accassional track day then the OEM pan is sufficient. If you are doing more than the occasional track day, then between your level of experience and likely mods (or both) you will be very close to the limits of the factory oil pan. Beyond that, you will definitely exceed the OEM pan's capabilities. If you're at a level of running slicks, cage, and all the suspension mods, then our Oil Control Valve is recommended to lateral loads above 1.6Gs sustained.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:00 AM   #36
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
What I tell people is that if you're doing only an accassional track day then the OEM pan is sufficient. If you are doing more than the occasional track day, then between your level of experience and likely mods (or both) you will be very close to the limits of the factory oil pan. Beyond that, you will definitely exceed the OEM pan's capabilities. If you're at a level of running slicks, cage, and all the suspension mods, then our Oil Control Valve is recommended to lateral loads above 1.6Gs sustained.
I think I'm kinda in the middle there. Nothing like the loads seen by a race car or anything but on the faster side for a street car setup.

Last year I did 5 track days. Probably about that many this year, maybe another one or two if I can.

Car is stock motor with headers, intake, turboback, tune. On RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers, Vorschlag camber plates with lots of camber at the track (-3.5 front, -2 rear), swaybars, most bushings done. No cage. Last season I was on 245 RE-71r/RS4's for tires -- hoping to go to 265s this season.

I'm no pro but I usually am one of the faster drivers out there. I often find I run considerably faster times than people expect out of a street car.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

I plan on upgrading just for the increased oil capacity alone. I will be tracking my car more, and it might be overkill but I want an oil temp gauge and the pan fits all those requirements for me.
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Old 03-28-19, 05:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I think I'm kinda in the middle there. Nothing like the loads seen by a race car or anything but on the faster side for a street car setup.
You're a wee bit beyond what I'd call safe for OEM. The OEM setup is generally good to ~1.1-1.2Gs. You have some sticky street tires and decent suspensions and more than an occasional track day... Plus you said you're on the faster side considering the cars. This is what I'd call a 'better safe than sorry' scenario.
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Old 03-28-19, 08:14 PM   #39
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
You're a wee bit beyond what I'd call safe for OEM. The OEM setup is generally good to ~1.1-1.2Gs. You have some sticky street tires and decent suspensions and more than an occasional track day... Plus you said you're on the faster side considering the cars. This is what I'd call a 'better safe than sorry' scenario.
Gotcha. Definitely ok with giving the motor as much of a fighting chance as I can

I'm curious though... if the Oil Control Valve would eliminate the issue of G's pushing oil, wouldn't that be the best solution even on a non-racecar? Or does the OEM pan have other ways in which it falls short?

BTW... I like the description of the Oil Control Valve on your website Kudos for not pushing racecar parts on those who don't need them.
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Old 03-28-19, 09:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Danny, it might be easier to use an IR thermometer to test the sensor in place instead of messing with boiling water and such.

I ran the road course at PPIR a couple years ago and my temps peaked at 245ºF with the Killer B pan, baffle, pickup. That was with my old gauges, but as far as I know the oil temp at least was accurate. I do think the pan is totally worth it even for the time attack series. The track has way more grip than your typical autocross surface and the corners are generally longer. My temps there peak at about 225-230ºF.
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