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Oil temps way high after header install
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Old 03-08-19, 08:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurred View Post
Well sensor in the drain plug will probably be a good bet. Add some heat shields or put your sensor somewhere else. Logically do you think your overall oil temps could increase by having a better flowing exhaust?
I could see that for sure. But the jump seems really drastic, which is why I'm concerned.

Any ideas of how to shield the sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raisingAnarchy
I'm assuming you're tuned. Are the headers coated or just bare?

I've been having trouble with putting the temp sensor in the pan's drain plug location. I think most sensor/thermocouples aren't designed well enough to mitigate ambient temps. I just don't know where else to put it because in theory it really is the best spot.
Yes, tuned for the mods.

Headers are bare... which I could see being a part of it.

Lots of horror stories around here from folks who have sent their parts to Swaintech... mixed with having the car down for 2 months to get the headers back make me not really want to go that route and local coaters just offer a basic coating that probably won't do a whole lot.

I've been considering wrapping them, but there's lots of people telling me that's a poor idea as well.

In the end, I asked around and heard from many (including Killer B) that running them bare wouldn't really affect performance much, so that's what I've been doing so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubySal
Hey Danny,

This is my set up. I don't have any issues with false oil temp readings as far as I can tell. With the undertray winter temps peak at about 180ºF. Time Attack temps peak at 230ºF and track temps at 245ºF. Because I'm me I also throw a wrap of DEI gold tape around the oil filter.
Thanks Sal. I was actually thinking to wrap the filter and maybe the pan in gold tape to try to help the situation a bit. I wonder how much the bigger oil pan helps too. Do you have your oil temp sensor in the drain plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8cd03gro
Did you remove the undertray as part of the header install?
Still running the plastic undertray. It melted in one tiny spot... maybe size of a quarter. I have a Beatrush one on order but they are backordered 4-6 weeks.

Last edited by brapp; 03-08-19 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 03-08-19, 02:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

How to wrap your header/uppipe - NASIOC


I wrapped my Killer B just like Unabomber above when I installed it about 13 months ago and it's been great (you do have to put some foil paper however on the wrap near the oil filter during oil changes).


My oil temps in South Florida have been +5 or 10 degrees increase or so vs. stock manifold with heat shields even with the wrap (my oil temp sensor is in the oil pan).
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Old 03-08-19, 04:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

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Originally Posted by 06SpecC View Post
How to wrap your header/uppipe - NASIOC


I wrapped my Killer B just like Unabomber above when I installed it about 13 months ago and it's been great (you do have to put some foil paper however on the wrap near the oil filter during oil changes).


My oil temps in South Florida have been +5 or 10 degrees increase or so vs. stock manifold with heat shields even with the wrap (my oil temp sensor is in the oil pan).
I am pretty sure I'm going to do the same. I've been a bit wary of wrap mostly as I live in Colorado and the car gets driven all year in all seasons. So it does see a lot of moisture and I don't want to rust out or crack the headers. But it seems like a lot of folks have been running wrapped for a long time with no issues so I'm leaning towards doing that.
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Old 03-08-19, 10:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by raisingAnarchy View Post
A little off topic, but can you share details on how you've insulated your oil temp sensor? Are you using the sender that came with the Perrin gauge? Is that a metal conduit covering the wire/sensor from the chassis up to the pan itself?

I read through your build thread on this topic again, but didn't find some of these details.
Sure thing. I used two different sizes of DEI Cool Tube Extreme. I don't remember the specific diameter of the tubing. The bigger of the two was just large enough to fit over the temp sensor. That is the sensor that came with the Perrin gauge by the way. The second smaller diameter tubing fits inside the larger tubing and just covers the sensor wire. Then I just used DEI gold foil tape to hold it all together. I did it this way because all I have to do is pull the tape, then I can slide the larger conduit back to access the temp sensor if need be. I do have to loosen the clamp too.

Speaking of which I also added a one-hole clamp for electrical conduit on the cross member to keep the sensor wire secured and as far from the header as possible. The other way I held the wire is modified stick-on zip tie mounts. Since they're plastic I covered them with gold foil too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
Thanks Sal. I was actually thinking to wrap the filter and maybe the pan in gold tape to try to help the situation a bit. I wonder how much the bigger oil pan helps too. Do you have your oil temp sensor in the drain plug?
The sensor is in the pan. It's under the Cool tube and foil tape. Technically it's not in the drain plug though. It's in a 1/2" NPT to 1/8" NPT brass adapter. Those Killer B pans have two threaded holes. One for the drain plug and the other for an oil temp sensor. Wrapping the pan could help. That should keep out some of the radiant heat coming off the header. I believe the Killer B pan does help with oil temps. It's aluminum so the whole thing acts as a heat sink and it adds oil capacity. If you get one you could simply polish it to cut down on radiant heat.

Last edited by SubySal; 03-08-19 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 03-09-19, 03:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubySal View Post
Sure thing. I used two different sizes of DEI Cool Tube Extreme. I don't remember the specific diameter of the tubing. The bigger of the two was just large enough to fit over the temp sensor. That is the sensor that came with the Perrin gauge by the way. The second smaller diameter tubing fits inside the larger tubing and just covers the sensor wire. Then I just used DEI gold foil tape to hold it all together. I did it this way because all I have to do is pull the tape, then I can slide the larger conduit back to access the temp sensor if need be. I do have to loosen the clamp too.

Speaking of which I also added a one-hole clamp for electrical conduit on the cross member to keep the sensor wire secured and as far from the header as possible. The other way I held the wire is modified stick-on zip tie mounts. Since they're plastic I covered them with gold foil too.

The sensor is in the pan. It's under the Cool tube and foil tape. Technically it's not in the drain plug though. It's in a 1/2" NPT to 1/8" NPT brass adapter. Those Killer B pans have two threaded holes. One for the drain plug and the other for an oil temp sensor. Wrapping the pan could help. That should keep out some of the radiant heat coming off the header. I believe the Killer B pan does help with oil temps. It's aluminum so the whole thing acts as a heat sink and it adds oil capacity. If you get one you could simply polish it to cut down on radiant heat.
Gotcha. I'm running the stock pan with a Killer B drain plug adaptor for the sensor. I'm going to try that Cool Tube for the sensor and DEI's new oil filter heat shield for the filter. I think I'll also try wrapping the oil pan in gold heat tape. Hopefully that all makes a difference... though I'm still also leaning towards wrapping the headers.
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Old 03-09-19, 05:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

You'd be surprised how little header and header proximity effects oil temps. Many years ago (before we made headers) we had a road coarse track guy who had a set of F-R headers that made contact with our pan. Not just a little contact, but primary contact along a +6" surface ON the pan. He had no overheating issues. NOT what I'd ever recommend, but it certainly showed how little the header effects the areas around it. If you you look at flow, volume, surface area, etc. a worse case scenario and you're exposing <2% to higher temps.

I would check your sender connections/ground. If they were disturbed during the header install that could effect the temp reading on the gauge.

What else changed when the header was changed? Oil change? Tune? Fuel type?
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Old 03-10-19, 05:04 AM   #17
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06SpecC View Post
How to wrap your header/uppipe - NASIOC

I wrapped my Killer B just like Unabomber above when I installed it about 13 months ago and it's been great (you do have to put some foil paper however on the wrap near the oil filter during oil changes).
Again - I have 40K all weather mi (sees plenty of salt) on a inexpensive DEI TI wrapped GT-Spec header. The wrap is just beginning to warrant replacement. I plan to do i this year. If I have to replace the header to, I'll post up. Monetarily it It still won't have been a poor choice even with replacement cost. Admittedly Id still rather have a wrapped KB header. This car is too old for the investment. Perhaps next one - which I am beginning to plan for.

Anyway I loosen my filter, and make a hole in the bottom to let it drain before removal. Cant do this outside when it's windy (happily don't have to anymore). I have done it outside when it was windy with cardboard around the upwind front side of the car.

Would this work with a KB:

* Loosen the filter.
* Drive a screw into the bottom of the filter
* Get a funnel fastened under it - whatever it takes, hose wire ect.
* Pull the screw and drain
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Old 03-10-19, 07:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

^ I don't see why not. I typically take a piece of tin foil over the header and remove the filter.

As far as wrap goes, we no longer warranty headers that are wrapped. This was a change we made a few years ago after seeing some failures due to wrap induced corrosion. In short, wrap in-use under daily driving conditions causes rapid oxidation (corrosion) of the base metal. Ideally headers used for daily driving are either left bare, or coated. If you want a coating that performs on the same level as a high performance wrap (and have the time and budget, as it's a long and expensive process), I recommend a product we use; Swain Tech Multi-Layer Ceramic Coating.
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Old 03-10-19, 08:10 AM   #19
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport View Post
You'd be surprised how little header and header proximity effects oil temps. Many years ago (before we made headers) we had a road coarse track guy who had a set of F-R headers that made contact with our pan. Not just a little contact, but primary contact along a +6" surface ON the pan. He had no overheating issues. NOT what I'd ever recommend, but it certainly showed how little the header effects the areas around it. If you you look at flow, volume, surface area, etc. a worse case scenario and you're exposing <2% to higher temps.

I would check your sender connections/ground. If they were disturbed during the header install that could effect the temp reading on the gauge.

What else changed when the header was changed? Oil change? Tune? Fuel type?
Interesting. The intake was changed from an SPT to a Grimmspeed along with the headers and the car was retuned for those changes.

I am starting to wonder about the sensor. It's a Defi sensor in the pan using a Killer B drain plug adaptor. The part of the sensor that is exposed to the air around the headers (not the actual sensing part, more where you would tighten it into the plug) is metal and is open to the air. I could definitely see how it could be getting heated and cause an elevated reading -- though I'd imagine it would be insulated against something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerbmotorsport
As far as wrap goes, we no longer warranty headers that are wrapped. This was a change we made a few years ago after seeing some failures due to wrap induced corrosion. In short, wrap in-use under daily driving conditions causes rapid oxidation (corrosion) of the base metal. Ideally headers used for daily driving are either left bare, or coated. If you want a coating that performs on the same level as a high performance wrap (and have the time and budget, as it's a long and expensive process), I recommend a product we use; Swain Tech Multi-Layer Ceramic Coating.
The one nice thing about CO is that they don't salt the roads here. So while it would be exposed to wet conditions (or as much as the undertray lets through), it wouldn't be getting covered in salt. Even so... sounding like you wouldn't recommend a wrap?

I'm sure Swaintech has a great product... and if I had gotten the headers straight from you I would've opted for that option. I got an amazing deal on them from a vendor though, so I bought them bare. It's not so much the cost for Swaintech that has me shying away... it's the huge downtime for the car and especially how many folks on here have had problems with receiving their headers back in poor shape or with overspray issues they had to clean up later.

As an aside... your website says both that you can wrap (and keep the warranty) and also that you do not warranty wrapped headers. Might want to remove the first mention

Last edited by brapp; 03-10-19 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 03-10-19, 10:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: Oil temps way high after header install

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
I could definitely see how it could be getting heated and cause an elevated reading -- though I'd imagine it would be insulated against something like that.
Get yourself a sample of fire sleeve (the orange stuff) and slide it over the adapter/sender. If the headers are in fact influencing the sensor temps, this should solve that. If not, you know it's another factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
Even so... sounding like you wouldn't recommend a wrap?
No. Not on a street application. For a track car or dry weather only car it's much less of an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
It's not so much the cost for Swaintech that has me shying away... it's the huge downtime for the car and especially how many folks on here have had problems with receiving their headers back in poor shape or with overspray issues they had to clean up later.
It's definitely a long process, taking many days. 4 weeks including shipping during the slow season and longer during the busy season.

I think most of the complaints are from people that have never used the service before and don't know what to expect. Application is difficult to precisely control so there can be overspray on v-band flanges. It just takes a little time to clear off; it's not difficult. There are not nearly as many complaints as there are happy customers. Half of the headers we sell, are bought with the Swain Tech option. With our Vektor Performance headers, about 80% order with the Swain Tech option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brapp View Post
As an aside... your website says both that you can wrap (and keep the warranty) and also that you do not warranty wrapped headers. Might want to remove the first mention
Thanks for the heads up. We are scheduled to make web-updates soon and that is on our list.
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