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Stage 2 too aggressive for track?
Stage 2 too aggressive for track?
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Old 04-24-16, 07:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

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Originally Posted by Slide View Post
I love protune's and highly recommend them as well. But...on something as mellow
As a "stage 2" set up, I am surprised that he had problems at the track.
I know that our cars are rather finicky, temperamental and have a horrendous weak spot... But all the "stage 2" upgrade does is make the air pump as free flowing and efficient as its stock parts can be and no more.
I would think that a low boost, or proper octane, or even when he said he juiced with higher octane, that he wouldn't have any problems at all. One would not expect knock problems on an e85 tune...so really how stressed is an OTS 2 tune with 100?
Fragile Pistons doent make for knock events. They just make knock events fatal!!!

Anyways... I'd check to make sure you weren't overheating...boost leaking...cooking your spark plugs (hello glow plug) as well.
True that you would think the 100 octane would give a little added insurance. But with that in mind, the OTS maps don't even compensate for differences that exist from car to car, so it is stretching it to think there is enough room left for the car to compensate for variables created by the high-stress driving plus likely very high temperatures. If the OTS map still has some lean areas, that only makes things worse. Even with a little higher octane, if cylinder temps are getting out of wack enough it still poses a problem.

I've already debated back and forth about a meth kit. If I do events with my car I'll get one, possibly for a little bit more aggressive timing, but mostly just for added insurance.
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Old 04-24-16, 07:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

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Originally Posted by murfnamedsmurf View Post
....But with that in mind, the OTS maps don't even compensate for differences that exist from car to car, so it is stretching it to think there is enough room left for the car to compensate for variables created by the high-stress driving plus likely very high temperatures. If the OTS map still has some lean areas, that only makes things worse....
I think that is where we may disagree on the design of the OTS tunes. Cobb has them as mellow as they can to compensate for the differences in car to car, altitude, temp and driver differences. They are clean ups of the even more lax stock tunes, getting rid of the dangerous epa lean outs and allowances for a slightly more efficient pump (usually meaning adding fuel, not subtracting it) but not much more.

The protuner does this same thing again...a massage of this stage 2 to the specific car (wether they start from scratch or have a generic base that they then dabble from Is Proprietary I assume). That is how a "protuner" finds the extra 10-20 hp (and sometimes dangerously more) in a protuner stage 2 over a Cobb ots.


The Cobb ots are a generic one size fits all overly safe for what it is.
A protune is a custom for your cars idiosyncrasies and safest bet you can get unless you are "tuned" for ten tenths...

I believe the Cobb tunes also maximize the stick injectors and fuel pump to get rid of any lean spots, which is why so many places encourage an upgraded in tank pump when going with "stage 2" modifications and OTS or custom tune.
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Old 04-24-16, 08:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

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Originally Posted by Slide View Post
I think that is where we may disagree on the design of the OTS tunes. Cobb has them as mellow as they can to compensate for the differences in car to car, altitude, temp and driver differences. They are clean ups of the even more lax stock tunes, getting rid of the dangerous epa lean outs and allowances for a slightly more efficient pump (usually meaning adding fuel, not subtracting it) but not much more.

The protuner does this same thing again...a massage of this stage 2 to the specific car (wether they start from scratch or have a generic base that they then dabble from Is Proprietary I assume). That is how a "protuner" finds the extra 10-20 hp (and sometimes dangerously more) in a protuner stage 2 over a Cobb ots.


The Cobb ots are a generic one size fits all overly safe for what it is.
A protune is a custom for your cars idiosyncrasies and safest bet you can get unless you are "tuned" for ten tenths...

I believe the Cobb tunes also maximize the stick injectors and fuel pump to get rid of any lean spots, which is why so many places encourage an upgraded in tank pump when going with "stage 2" modifications and OTS or custom tune.

Fair enough. I am still of the opinion that I would want the most precise tune for my car. The OTS maps may tend toward the rich side for safety. Even though this is safer than running lean, consistently running rich is not good either. In complete fairness, as mentioned, I would feel uneasy even with a protuned stage 2 pushing hard on the track without some extra support like meth injection. That's just me. Truthfully I'd always be paranoid anyway - too many lifted heads etc etc, I'd definitely be ready for a build if I tracked my car hard.
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Old 04-24-16, 10:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

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Originally Posted by Slide View Post
I know that our cars are rather finicky, temperamental and have a horrendous weak spot... But all the "stage 2" upgrade does is make the air pump as free flowing and efficient as its stock parts can be and no more.
.



I guess maybe a turbo could be considered an "air pump"...


In any case, it seems like people's results vary widely with OTS tunes. My 03 WRX overboosted horribly on the OTS map, on the OTS map that was supposed to help with overboosting, and on tweaked OTS maps that Cobb sent me to help with the overboosting. Got a protune and fixed the problem immediately.
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Old 04-24-16, 11:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

Haha I love that picture, but yes a turbo is essentially an air pump. Good point on the overboosting. That's the kind of thing I was talking about - I do not consider the OTS maps to be at all fine tuned for each car. I think they probably work great on some cars, but they are a one-size-fits-all solution that doesn't really work perfectly for everyone.
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Old 04-24-16, 12:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

Lol! I meant the engine is an air pump...sucks it in (or forced in) and pushed out!!!

I just meant that the OTS tunes are not pushing much anywhere near the limit and as such are not "fine tuned"....that's the point. Leaves a lot for error in temp,
Over boost, bad fuel, lugging, altitude...etc etc...engine build descrepancies (sp?)
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Old 04-24-16, 12:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

100oct fuel plus 93oct OTS map = happy engine on track.
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Old 04-24-16, 12:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

The OP hasnt mentioned if he even has a 3" cobb downpipe??? The way his post is written, if taken literally, states that he flashed a stage 2 map and took his car to the track?? I don't know that he even has the supporting mods or if he flashed the stage 2 on a stock engine??

The cobb stage 2 instructions are clear not to mix different brand downpipes and air filters than what they specify and not to go catless on the stage 2 ap tune.
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Old 04-24-16, 10:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide View Post
Lol! I meant the engine is an air pump...sucks it in (or forced in) and pushed out!!!

I just meant that the OTS tunes are not pushing much anywhere near the limit and as such are not "fine tuned"....that's the point. Leaves a lot for error in temp,
Over boost, bad fuel, lugging, altitude...etc etc...engine build descrepancies (sp?)
Haha! The rest of your post seemed too knowledgable for you to actually be claiming that the air pump was what was producing more power
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Old 04-24-16, 10:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Stage 2 too aggressive for track?

Shhhhh.... Let's not go putting ideas of "knowledgeability" into my head!

But on a further OT; Brapp, do you have a thread about comparing the GR to the GD...? (I just looked at your profile)
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