Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! - Page 3

mxpop · 04-19-2007, 10:45 AM

I'm not an expert on this topic but my understanding is that the benefit is that you will be able to tune as if you are running race gas (10 #'s higher octane-ish). Also, you will help the IC cool better which is really a benefit with TMICs, heatsoak can become a non-issue if it's designed/indtalled,tuned correctly. I also have my IC spritzer set to activate anytime I get over 15psi of boost.

My car makes about the same whp/t with race gas/no meth as it does with pump gas using meth.

***Majin*** · 04-20-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mxpop

I'm not an expert on this topic but my understanding is that the benefit is that you will be able to tune as if you are running race gas (10 #'s higher octane-ish). Also, you will help the IC cool better which is really a benefit with TMICs, heatsoak can become a non-issue if it's designed/indtalled,tuned correctly. I also have my IC spritzer set to activate anytime I get over 15psi of boost.

My car makes about the same whp/t with race gas/no meth as it does with pump gas using meth.

the benefits to meth/water are in the first post.

13rus · 08-16-2007, 03:25 PM

Methanol's accepted conservative Octane rating is 123. While researching methanol injection on WWII-era fighter planes and going through some research papers, I have come across Methanol octane ratings of 160 up to 200, depending on the source. In our tuning we use 123 as a base number for calculations, which works very well.

Methanol on its own does not add any horsepower, rather allows you to utilize all the above described benefits to run and tune for, higher boost while being knock-free.

While experimenting with Methanol we determined that 80/20 or 70/30 mix of methanol/distilled water works best for knock protection while maintaining all of the benefits of pure methanol.

Additionally, running methanol and very high boost levels (27psi in my case) results in thinning my Mobil-1 5W30 oil to water-like viscosity. At last oil change I used thick Mobil-1 0W-40 (European spec) oil, which should be just perfect until colder winter weather, when I can change back to 5W30.

***Majin*** · 08-17-2007, 07:10 PM

^ excellent post. Doug at TopSpeed had told me that 75% meth/25% distilled is perfect all-around and easy to measure. (of course i didn't doubt him!)

i will update the first post in this thread with a link to your post.

TheLimitedProject · 08-18-2007, 07:48 AM

One thing I've come accross is with the meth jets themselves - they are NOT very strong.

Whether it's the constant changing in temperature, from extreme heat (DD, or track days) to cool to the touch, or if it's from the meth itself, the jets (nozzles) bind to their housing over time. In my case, it was an Aquamist/Perrin jet binding to a welded and tapped bung in my I/C tube.

I've found that removing the meth jets when the engine has just been shut off (from being at operating temps) is the safest way to remove them. At that point, the jets won't bind as much and the chances of them shearing off are far less.

Here's an example of what happens when you wrench on a jet that's been used for a while, and is removed when cold:

In this picture, what you're seeing is inside the nozzle. I had to extract the threaded portion of the nozzle that had sheared off flush with the i/c pipe. I'll post a picture of that later....

(Majin, if this is too off topic of this thread, delete it

)

ninjaboy76 · 08-18-2007, 01:41 PM

The bung was tapped for BSP and not NPT correct? The aqumist nozzles are BSP threads.

There is some really good info in this thread about meth / water injection including a demonstration showing the difference between aquamist system which uses a high speed in line valve similar to a fuel injector, and a standard progressive injection system:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...=252352&page=2

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpos...7&postcount=12

post 21 and 23. Sorry. I know it the evo forum, but I've learned more about water / alky injection than I ever did on this site or nasioc.

Also the Perrin and some of the aqumist systems monitor when to spray water / meth injection based off of injector duty cycle instead of boost pressure. This makes the spraying a lot more accurate. The evom members just had a group buy hosted by aquamist. Someone on here should see if they can get something like that setup. We ended up with almost 40 members in the group buy.

***QuickSilverSTi*** · 08-18-2007, 01:54 PM

Tired of not having a meth/WI specific forum? I AM!

Nice write up. Can we have a specific forum?

Mike Costin · 08-31-2007, 11:21 AM

^^^ Or even more links to good articles/posts about M/W injection would be sweet... I can't read enough about it! Some of Richard/Aquamist's discussions are pretty interesting on the other forums as well. Same for the posts on the evo and dodge forums occasionally.

I can't wait to see what kind of trap speed I'll be pulling with 3" catted DP and 75/25 M/W and pump 93 after my tune in a few weeks. If I wasn't scared of dying in a fire I would run 100% meth on my daily driver.

ace996 · 08-31-2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjaboy76

There is some really good info in this thread about meth / water injection including a demonstration showing the difference between aquamist system which uses a high speed in line valve similar to a fuel injector, and a standard progressive injection system:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...=252352&page=2

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpos...7&postcount=12

post 21 and 23. Sorry. I know it the evo forum, but I've learned more about water / alky injection than I ever did on this site or nasioc.

Also the Perrin and some of the aqumist systems monitor when to spray water / meth injection based off of injector duty cycle instead of boost pressure. This makes the spraying a lot more accurate. The evom members just had a group buy hosted by aquamist. Someone on here should see if they can get something like that setup. We ended up with almost 40 members in the group buy.

AM makes some great kits, but my experience is with USA companies...AlkyControl and Snow Performance. Both great kits but I went with Snow this time and use their MAF based controller.

Also, the Snow solenoid acts very much like a super quick on/off valve to eliminate the dribble seen in the above videos.

Here's a few pics of my setup...although I'm not finished...some 90degree elbows to clean-up the tubing and then install the carpeting/covers for neatness...

Here is the Spec-C tank, you can see the breather in the center of the tank with the black nylon tubing. That exits through the driver's side rear fender vent, just below the jack mount...

Closer...

Red tubing from Spec-C to the passenger corner, on it's way to the stock tank in the back...

The stock tank in the back...the blue cap is sealed with Automotive Goop (methanol safe) to make the tank airtight...

With cover on...

My controller, MAF triggered, mounted in the center console...

The dyno from XXTuning showing my Cobb Stage2 map vs the Protune with meth....

Be good,
TomK

Poolhut23 · 09-24-2007, 04:53 AM

Can you run the 50/50 mix in the winter?

modaddict · 09-24-2007, 01:31 PM

Majin,

Please update your first post and state that one can get "protuned" with a hydra

, (as the NoOB's call it these days)

Or that water/meth will work with the AP, Ecutek, UTEC, Hydra, (probably AEM and other EM's coming out too)

AND THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:::::::::::::::::::

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth

Upcoming Pro-tune Meth Inj or Not Opinions

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth

BillFromTR · 09-24-2007, 05:24 PM

All your links are coming 404 page not found, modaddict.

modaddict · 09-24-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFromTR

All your links are coming 404 page not found, modaddict.

that is wierd! I KNOW atleast 1 worked earlier, I checked!

I'll go fix them

modaddict · 09-24-2007, 05:45 PM

FiXz0rD.

***Majin*** · 09-25-2007, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolhut23

Can you run the 50/50 mix in the winter?

yes. you can run any mix you would like to as the mixture has a freezing point less than that of water alone (the effect is the same as the one experienced with mixing water and antifreeze - the boiling and freezing points are moved higher and lower, respectively).

ask your tuner which mixture he prefers, and run that mix all year long.

good question.

04-19-2007, 10:45 AM	#31
mxpop Spec C Club Car: '06 STI Fav Mod: air freshener!!! Location: Santa barbara area Posts: 2,290 Join Date: Jan 2006 Trader Rating: (2)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! I'm not an expert on this topic but my understanding is that the benefit is that you will be able to tune as if you are running race gas (10 #'s higher octane-ish). Also, you will help the IC cool better which is really a benefit with TMICs, heatsoak can become a non-issue if it's designed/indtalled,tuned correctly. I also have my IC spritzer set to activate anytime I get over 15psi of boost. My car makes about the same whp/t with race gas/no meth as it does with pump gas using meth. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

08-16-2007, 03:25 PM	#33
13rus Junior STI Driver Car: goQuality 06 STI Fav Mod: My Tune Posts: 163 Join Date: Mar 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! Methanol's accepted conservative Octane rating is 123. While researching methanol injection on WWII-era fighter planes and going through some research papers, I have come across Methanol octane ratings of 160 up to 200, depending on the source. In our tuning we use 123 as a base number for calculations, which works very well. Methanol on its own does not add any horsepower, rather allows you to utilize all the above described benefits to run and tune for, higher boost while being knock-free. While experimenting with Methanol we determined that 80/20 or 70/30 mix of methanol/distilled water works best for knock protection while maintaining all of the benefits of pure methanol. Additionally, running methanol and very high boost levels (27psi in my case) results in thinning my Mobil-1 5W30 oil to water-like viscosity. At last oil change I used thick Mobil-1 0W-40 (European spec) oil, which should be just perfect until colder winter weather, when I can change back to 5W30. Last edited by 13rus : 08-16-2007 at 03:34 PM.

08-17-2007, 07:10 PM	#34
*Majin* issuer of points and bans Car: 2004 STi Location: LI, NY Posts: 12,558 Join Date: Apr 2004 Trader Rating: (2)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! ^ excellent post. Doug at TopSpeed had told me that 75% meth/25% distilled is perfect all-around and easy to measure. (of course i didn't doubt him!) i will update the first post in this thread with a link to your post.

08-18-2007, 07:48 AM	#35
TheLimitedProject Spec C Club Car: 07 STI LTD/08 STI Fav Mod: APS/Crawford/Cosworth/Aquamist Location: E-town, AB Posts: 2,253 Join Date: Apr 2005 Trader Rating: (5)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! One thing I've come accross is with the meth jets themselves - they are NOT very strong. Whether it's the constant changing in temperature, from extreme heat (DD, or track days) to cool to the touch, or if it's from the meth itself, the jets (nozzles) bind to their housing over time. In my case, it was an Aquamist/Perrin jet binding to a welded and tapped bung in my I/C tube. I've found that removing the meth jets when the engine has just been shut off (from being at operating temps) is the safest way to remove them. At that point, the jets won't bind as much and the chances of them shearing off are far less. Here's an example of what happens when you wrench on a jet that's been used for a while, and is removed when cold: In this picture, what you're seeing is inside the nozzle. I had to extract the threaded portion of the nozzle that had sheared off flush with the i/c pipe. I'll post a picture of that later.... (Majin, if this is too off topic of this thread, delete it )

08-18-2007, 01:41 PM	#36
ninjaboy76 Spec C Club Car: 05 STI, 08 CBR1000RR Fav Mod: None Location: Kansas Posts: 2,358 Join Date: Jun 2004 Trader Rating: (6)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! The bung was tapped for BSP and not NPT correct? The aqumist nozzles are BSP threads. There is some really good info in this thread about meth / water injection including a demonstration showing the difference between aquamist system which uses a high speed in line valve similar to a fuel injector, and a standard progressive injection system: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...=252352&page=2 http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpos...7&postcount=12 post 21 and 23. Sorry. I know it the evo forum, but I've learned more about water / alky injection than I ever did on this site or nasioc. Also the Perrin and some of the aqumist systems monitor when to spray water / meth injection based off of injector duty cycle instead of boost pressure. This makes the spraying a lot more accurate. The evom members just had a group buy hosted by aquamist. Someone on here should see if they can get something like that setup. We ended up with almost 40 members in the group buy.

08-18-2007, 01:54 PM	#37
*QuickSilverSTi* nulla poena sine lege Car: '06 Works GP Location: Northern VA Posts: 1,747 Join Date: Nov 2003 Trader Rating: (5)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! Tired of not having a meth/WI specific forum? I AM! Nice write up. Can we have a specific forum?

08-31-2007, 11:21 AM	#38
Mike Costin Amateur STI Driver Car: 06 STI Posts: 19 Join Date: Jan 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! ^^^ Or even more links to good articles/posts about M/W injection would be sweet... I can't read enough about it! Some of Richard/Aquamist's discussions are pretty interesting on the other forums as well. Same for the posts on the evo and dodge forums occasionally. I can't wait to see what kind of trap speed I'll be pulling with 3" catted DP and 75/25 M/W and pump 93 after my tune in a few weeks. If I wasn't scared of dying in a fire I would run 100% meth on my daily driver.

09-24-2007, 04:53 AM	#40
Poolhut23 Lurker Car: 06 WRX STi Posts: 7 Join Date: Mar 2007 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! Can you run the 50/50 mix in the winter?

09-24-2007, 01:31 PM	#41
modaddict Spec C Club Car: 04 Crawford STi Fav Mod: CP35r 440whp Location: pasco, WA Posts: 1,829 Join Date: Jun 2006 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! Majin, Please update your first post and state that one can get "protuned" with a hydra , (as the NoOB's call it these days) Or that water/meth will work with the AP, Ecutek, UTEC, Hydra, (probably AEM and other EM's coming out too) AND THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!::::::::::::::::::: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth Upcoming Pro-tune Meth Inj or Not Opinions http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth Congratulations! - 11.0 @ 128mph - '04 STi FPRed 93oct + Meth Inj http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...highlight=meth Topspeed Sti 572 whp on 93 oct and meth Last edited by modaddict : 09-24-2007 at 05:44 PM. Reason: NeWB pw3n4ge

09-24-2007, 05:24 PM	#42
BillFromTR Spec C Club Car: Wingless '05 Fav Mod: BOV and MBC Location: Armpit of America Posts: 2,185 Join Date: Mar 2005 Trader Rating: (4)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! All your links are coming 404 page not found, modaddict.

09-24-2007, 05:45 PM	#44
modaddict Spec C Club Car: 04 Crawford STi Fav Mod: CP35r 440whp Location: pasco, WA Posts: 1,829 Join Date: Jun 2006 Trader Rating: (3)	Re: Tired of Water or Water & Methanol Injection Questions? I AM! FiXz0rD.