[Slimey]

I did a search and didn't find an answer here, nabisco, or the Cobb FAQ.

I have some questions regarding the AP with OTS maps. I'll admit that I know little about engine management except what I've read in these and other forums. I suspect these questions are quite basic and their answers can apply to most everyone with an AP.

I'm thinking about getting the AP from Perrin with the Perrin 93 octane stage 1 map (as well as the original Cobb maps). The STI is my daily driver and I'll 99.7% sure I'll never take it to a track.

My car is stock. I could see myself getting a CBE (I'm looking forward to the Perrin Stealth with quad tips) or maybe even a TBE in the future, but am primarily concerned about reliability over power. I suspect that I'd put mod money into suspension and wheel upgrades before going TBE.

We have 93 octane fuel around here and am at ~600-1000 ft elevation for several hundred miles around. Temps can go to 100ºF in summer and -20ºF in winter.

1) Should I expect any issues with an OTS map and this temperature range?

2) What happens if I drive across the county and go across the rockies, or see only 92 and 91 fuel? Do I have to load a different map for each state/region?

3) Would the answers to these questions be the same if I had a protune? P&L is only about 1.5 - 2 hours away, but is it worth it for stage 1? Scheduling the time would be a bigger factor to me then the cost or travel.

4) With respect to long term reliability and an OTS or protune: can I keep this car as a daily driver for 5-10 years on the same tune?

4a) Is 'tune' something that changes with the life of the car? Would there be any anticipated changes to maps that would need to occur across the life of the car if no additional intake/engine/exhaust mods are added?

4b) Although I do most basic maintenance myself, I still take the cars in for major service. Should I notify the tech that I have an aftermarket tune if/when the car goes in for 30K/60K/90K mileage service that includes spark plug changes? Do I have to do anything special (reflash) before or after those service checks?

5) Say like I hate a smoother more powerful car that has better MPG after the AP reflash If I decide to go back to my stock map, is it really 100% stock? Is there any corruption or alteration by the AP that modifies the saved stock SOA/FHI map? I've already read that the ECU checksum is changed; this is not what I'm asking about.

I understand that my local dealer is mod friendly and although I'm mildly concerned about warranty issues, I'm not so much concerned for it to be a deal breaker with respect to the AP. I understand that at some level warranty interpretation is a crap shoot and that any modification risks a warranty hassle.

[USNSTI]

No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Not sure, Not sure.

[solovus]

Originally Posted by Slimey

We have 93 octane fuel around here and am at ~600-1000 ft elevation for several hundred miles around. Temps can go to 100ºF in summer and -20ºF in winter.

1) Should I expect any issues with an OTS map and this temperature range?

You will get varying opinions on this, but in Milwaukee where there are huge temp differences between summer and winter an OTS map is not the answer. I would recommend getting two protunes...a winter map and a summer map. Talk to your tuner...I'm sure they will love to take your money for two tunes

Originally Posted by Slimey

2) What happens if I drive across the county and go across the rockies, or see only 92 and 91 fuel? Do I have to load a different map for each state/region?

You can get tuned for 91 and be done with it...although you will make less power than is possible with 93...you will still have great results...ask WRXguyUSman? (I can't believe I cannot remember this...he's asian so he will know everything )

Originally Posted by Slimey

3) Would the answers to these questions be the same if I had a protune? P&L is only about 1.5 - 2 hours away, but is it worth it for stage 1? Scheduling the time would be a bigger factor to me then the cost or travel.

Yes. Protunes are made for your car.

Originally Posted by Slimey

4) With respect to long term reliability and an OTS or protune: can I keep this car as a daily driver for 5-10 years on the same tune?

Maybe. OTS is hit or miss. With a protune 5-10 years is definitely reasonable.

Originally Posted by Slimey

4a) Is 'tune' something that changes with the life of the car? Would there be any anticipated changes to maps that would need to occur across the life of the car if no additional intake/engine/exhaust mods are added?

Maybe a loss of compression due to ring wear, but nothing dangerous as long as you keep up with regular maintenance.

Originally Posted by Slimey

4b) Although I do most basic maintenance myself, I still take the cars in for major service. Should I notify the tech that I have an aftermarket tune if/when the car goes in for 30K/60K/90K mileage service that includes spark plug changes? Do I have to do anything special (reflash) before or after those service checks?

You don't have to, but if they discover it during routine maintenance it could be bad for you...another thing to think about is that SOA might try to slip their own reflash into the ECU while you are in for repair...this will screw you because your AP won't be able to reflash it. Rule of thumb is just to reflash to stock when taking it in...better rule of thumb...do your own maintenance.

Originally Posted by Slimey

5) Say like I hate a smoother more powerful car that has better MPG after the AP reflash If I decide to go back to my stock map, is it really 100% stock? Is there any corruption or alteration by the AP that modifies the saved stock SOA/FHI map? I've already read that the ECU checksum is changed; this is not what I'm asking about.

Completely stock. The AP stores the original map upon installation and restores the stock (saved) map to the ECU upon unmarrying.

Originally Posted by Slimey

I understand that my local dealer is mod friendly and although I'm mildly concerned about warranty issues, I'm not so much concerned for it to be a deal breaker with respect to the AP. I understand that at some level warranty interpretation is a crap shoot and that any modification risks a warranty hassle.

Your dealership may claim to be mod friendly, but SOA -is not- so just assume that an AP will void every part of your powertrain warranty if discovered. It is best to take precautions to make sure the dealer/SOA does not know about the AP.

[Slimey]

Thanks for the quick answers.

Sounds like there are optimistic and pessimistic views regarding OTS maps...kind of like the rest of the internet. Good stuff.

Another question for an OTS pessimist (solovus?): will an OTS map (from a souce like Cobb or Perrin) hurt my car, or is it just not as good as a protune?

For that matter, is a stock SOA/FHI tune 'made for my car' or is more like an OTS map? Although I can appreciate the reasons why a protune might be better then a OTS tune, I'm not sure I've seen evidence here that an OTS tune is bad for my car. Point me in the right direction if this is not true.

Once again, I'm not tracking or spending my whole driving experience at high RPM or boost. I understand that different people have different goals. Mine are simple - reliable power and driveablitliy. If I see more answers like solovus, I'm more inclined to keep it stock.

[solovus]

Originally Posted by Slimey

will an OTS map (from a souce like Cobb or Perrin) hurt my car, or is it just not as good as a protune?

Definitely not as good as a pro-tune. You may hear some people talk about the Cobb or Perrin maps as being at "Pro-Tune Levels" ...this is different from a pro-tune...a pro-tune is made for your car ...period. An OTS map works for some cars and blows up others. You can flip that coin if you want.

Originally Posted by Slimey

For that matter, is a stock SOA/FHI tune 'made for my car' or is more like an OTS map?

Stock tune is a OTS map...the problem is SOA had to tune it to meet LEV specs for the EPA and ended up trying to ride the fence of reliability/emissions and some cars can't take the tune due to the variations from tolerances at the factory.

Originally Posted by Slimey

Although I can appreciate the reasons why a protune might be better then a OTS tune, I'm not sure I've seen evidence here that an OTS tune is bad for my car. Point me in the right direction if this is not true.

Here is a sampling. Some people survive the stock tune and some people fail. Some people get a protune only after the start seeing symptoms (failure) of the bad stock tune...

2008 STI owners poll (Problems vs. No Problems)

Another 07 with low comp in #4. Warranty process - please read!!!

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2008-sti...erience-s.html

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-p...miles-wtf.html

[spongebobnopants]

Originally Posted by Slimey

Once again, I'm not tracking or spending my whole driving experience at high RPM or boost. I understand that different people have different goals. Mine are simple - reliable power and driveablitliy. If I see more answers like solovus, I'm more inclined to keep it stock.

I bought my AP from Perrin and got their free stage 1 map. Worked awesome on my car. Flashed it with 800 miles on it. Just changed my oil for the second time. 6k on the car and I redline it atleast a few times a day. no tracking though.

I'll eventually get a protune or open source when available and probably be able to sell the AP for 50%.

There will be a logging cable out soon to see how well an OTS tune runs on your car. I logged my VW all the time. And yes some OTS tunes are not the best for everyone.

[Slimey]

Originally Posted by solovus

Some people survive the stock tune and some people fail. Some people get a protune only after the start seeing symptoms (failure) of the bad stock tune...

Hence some of the difficulty in making any conclusions regarding claims of good versus evil in stock vs OTS vs protune.

Bad events seem to be pretty random, IMHO. The only thing that there seems to be actual data on is lean condition on the stock tune which some (many?) postulate to be a source of bad outcomes in '07+...and some (many?) seem to believe that the OTS tunes at the very least fix that issue. From what I've seen, this is at best speculative, as I've yet to see either SOA admit to ECU problems (as in an update) or someone else independently test (as in run a stock engine on the dyno until it blows) these theories. IMHO...

From what you post, it seems the only reliable option is a protune. It seems to me that Cobb has many happy customers on a posting on a number of forums.

It seems that the only reliable all-weather long drive option would be the stock (under warranty so who gives a @*#% if the engine blows), or multiple protune maps, which from my point of view, seems quite cumbersome for my intended use.


It may seem that I'm challenging you or disagreeing, but I should say that I do appreciate the opinions and discussion and will value them in my decision.

[upncummr]

Originally Posted by Slimey

It seems that the only reliable all-weather long drive option would be the stock (under warranty so who gives a @*#% if the engine blows), or multiple protune maps, which from my point of view, seems quite cumbersome for my intended use.

Slimey:

I can certainly appreciate the quandry in which '07/'08 STi drivers find themselves.

On one hand, if you run the factory tune, you also run the risk of major engine problems that may or may not be covered under warranty. In my reading of the threads there are people that maintain their cars have always been stock, driven like their grandmother is in the car with them, etc. Then when they have an engine failure, SOA declines warranty coverage for a variety of reasons that have the common thread of "abusive driving". So warranty coverage isn't a given on the stock tune.

On the other hand, if you run a different map then the factory tune, you may/may not have voided your factory warranty in the event of a failure. Changing to a non-factory map may improve your chances of not having an engine failure, but doesn't help in that unfortunate situation where you have a major failure.

I don't envy you guys.

Good luck!

Gary

[solovus]

Originally Posted by Slimey

Hence some of the difficulty in making any conclusions regarding claims of good versus evil in stock vs OTS vs protune.

Bad events seem to be pretty random, IMHO. The only thing that there seems to be actual data on is lean condition on the stock tune which some (many?) postulate to be a source of bad outcomes in '07+...and some (many?) seem to believe that the OTS tunes at the very least fix that issue. From what I've seen, this is at best speculative, as I've yet to see either SOA admit to ECU problems (as in an update) or someone else independently test (as in run a stock engine on the dyno until it blows) these theories. IMHO...

From what you post, it seems the only reliable option is a protune. It seems to me that Cobb has many happy customers on a posting on a number of forums.

It seems that the only reliable all-weather long drive option would be the stock (under warranty so who gives a @*#% if the engine blows), or multiple protune maps, which from my point of view, seems quite cumbersome for my intended use.


It may seem that I'm challenging you or disagreeing, but I should say that I do appreciate the opinions and discussion and will value them in my decision.

The problem comes in when SOA might start d*cking you around about "why" the problem happened.

[Slimey]

Originally Posted by upncummr

I can certainly appreciate the quandry in which '07/'08 STi drivers find themselves.

On one hand, if you run the factory tune, you also run the risk of major engine problems that may or may not be covered under warranty. In my reading of the threads there are people that maintain their cars have always been stock, driven like their grandmother is in the car with them, etc. Then when they have an engine failure, SOA declines warranty coverage for a variety of reasons that have the common thread of "abusive driving". So warranty coverage isn't a given on the stock tune.

On the other hand, if you run a different map then the factory tune, you may/may not have voided your factory warranty in the event of a failure. Changing to a non-factory map may improve your chances of not having an engine failure, but doesn't help in that unfortunate situation where you have a major failure.

Hit's nail on head again. 'Quandry' says it all for someone like me that has no plans on heavy modding or heavy use.

Originally Posted by solovus

The problem comes in when SOA might start d*cking you around about "why" the problem happened.

Yes. Unfortunately, auto warranties for major failures seem to be a bit of a crapshoot, even though it shouldn't work that way. At least in a stock vehicle, for the sake of the warranty, you have a leg to stand on. After an aftermarket tune (protune or OTS) you're hobbled.

Ugh...decisions, decisions, decisions...

[upncummr]

Originally Posted by Slimey

Ugh...decisions, decisions, decisions...

If it was me, I'd stay with the factory tune and be very careful all through the warranty period.

As mattjk suggested in another thread, stay out of major boost below 3,200 to 3,500 RPMs as the stock tune runs lean AFRs up until 3,200 or so. (See post #198 in this thread - 2008 STI owners poll (Problems vs. No Problems))

I'd probably also get a compression/leak down test annually during the warranty period to make sure all is well. I'd also make sure to have all my maintenance done at the dealership so there is good documentation and develop a very good relationship with the service manager and the owner (if possible).

At the end of the warranty period, I'd move to an aftermarket tune.

Gary

[USNSTI]

Originally Posted by upncummr

If it was me, I'd stay with the factory tune and be very careful all through the warranty period.

As mattjk suggested in another thread, stay out of major boost below 3,200 to 3,500 RPMs as the stock tune runs lean AFRs up until 3,200 or so. (See post #198 in this thread - 2008 STI owners poll (Problems vs. No Problems))

I'd probably also get a compression/leak down test annually during the warranty period to make sure all is well. I'd also make sure to have all my maintenance done at the dealership and develop a very good relationship with the service manager and the owner (if possible).

At the end of the warranty period, I'd move to an aftermarket tune.

Gary

Sadly, this is what it may take to keep your warranty in good standing.

[upncummr]

Originally Posted by USNSTI

Sadly, this is what it may take to keep your warranty in good standing.

The other thing that I'd do, or maybe more correctly not do, is take it to the track.

Based upon the reported results in WRXGuyInUSA's poll, tracked cars have a failure rate that is 379% that of the non-tracked cars in the poll. The failure rate for tracked cars is roughly 14 - 15%. That's too high in my opinion for me to risk taking it to the track. (Not implying that all the above-referenced cars broke at the track or anything like that just that past track usage was reportedly a common denominator.)

Gary

[spongebobnopants]

Originally Posted by upncummr

If it was me, I'd stay with the factory tune and be very careful all through the warranty period.

As mattjk suggested in another thread, stay out of major boost below 3,200 to 3,500 RPMs as the stock tune runs lean AFRs up until 3,200 or so. (See post #198 in this thread - 2008 STI owners poll (Problems vs. No Problems))

I'd probably also get a compression/leak down test annually during the warranty period to make sure all is well. I'd also make sure to have all my maintenance done at the dealership so there is good documentation and develop a very good relationship with the service manager and the owner (if possible).

At the end of the warranty period, I'd move to an aftermarket tune.

Gary

Just read that post. Interesting thing is the OEM tune seems to hit peak TQ much earlier than many tunes. which makes sense. I am curious about something though. This was done on an OEM tune/car? A/F meter behind 2 cats is going to read leaner so it actually might not be as lean as the graph shows. EGT's measured during that would really help to see how dangerous it is along with a datalog of timing.

[Slimey]

Answering my own thread - feel free to comment.

Just read through a bunch of Cobb forums as well as some more on nabisco and here.

My take home messages -

• It looks like 1000s of AccessPorts have been sold.
  
• Complaints about danger from OTS maps are rare and for any issues noted, Cobb has been helpful in improving. Most issues (creep) have been for Stage II; Stage I seems pretty safe.
  
• If anything, Cobb or Perrin OTS maps are conservative and safe and account for a wide range of environment (including ambient temperature); protunes are specific for a given car and environment.
  
• I can potentially datalog after I get an AccessPort and perhaps help figure out if a protune would be necessary. (not 100% sure on this one as I don't really understand what one is looking at when datalogging, but I'm sure someone here can help)
  
• Although there are a number of ways to protune, the AccessPort method seems to be the most user friendly for someone like me.
  
• '07+ engines have blown 1) stock, 2) with OTS maps, and 3) protuned. Once again, seems too random and/or other details are too sketchy to state that one version is riskier than another...except for what is said about the stock tune.
  
• While I'd like to not believe that SOA/FHI gave us a bad tune, or that if one was noted it would be replaced by a better tune/version upgrade, I do realize that they are ultimately a business and if risk/liability exposure is << benefit/profit, then they'll absorb the financial or PR cost of the problems.

All that being said, there really seems to be little argument against an AccessPort apart from the enigma of warranty resolution should one be faced with that situation.