[JWA]

Originally Posted by SirMattieP

But i remember breaking in my goped race engine...

There are Goped races, and it's serious enough to have specific race engines? Cool.

[Es Tee Aye]

yeah i believe breaking it in hard off the back (without ragging on it too much) can produce a "freak" motor... many people running close to stock motors on alot of cars that were broken in very good can ussually out perform or so i read...

[Sleeper in Seattle]

I actually had my engine broken in exactly how motorman described.... While I was signing the paper work, a very trusted friend followed the breakin proceedure to a T. We let it cool after wards, and did another round going in stages up the rpms- after letting it get back up to operating temp. Then we changed the oil. My car ultimately (an 06) made less power than his 05 which he broke in gently.

I see how the break in proceedure makes sense, but I don't really subscribe to the whole belief any more- at least not with boxer engines....

For my next engine, I will break it in gently, unless the engine builder tells me otherwise....

my 2 cents

[The Sim]

I'm worried this could be the SOA spying thread, everyone who posts "yes" in here gets put on the "warranty deny" list?

[jph]

i did a "not so gentle" break in. but i don't think that i beat on it either. nothing that it shouldn't be able to handle.

drove the car for 5 minutes, let everything warm up nicely, then i hit the freeway, and pulled WOT through 2->4th. downshifted, engine break a couple of times, went WOT in 4th and 5th a couple of times after that, building boost. that was my break in.

after that, i just drive it as feel like it, or as traffic conditions allow. i usually drive pretty relaxed

first oil change at 200 miles.
second oil change at 1000 miles
3rd oil change at 3000 miles, switched to 0W30 castrol synthec.

1000 miles later, doesn't burn any oil. so far so good.

i took a gentle 1000 miles on my '04, and it drank oil.


J.

[008STI]

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Easy.. just grab the manual to your car, your buddy's car, your wife's car or any other car and check what the manufacturer's break in procedure is. They are the people who design, build and warranty these engines. Unfortunately we all have to pay more for cars because of idiots like MotoMan making manufacturers warranty engines that were damaged or prematurely failed due to a hard break in. In one camp we have every what every manufacturer in the world says on our side. In the other there is what one idiot with a poorly written and poorly designed website says. It is beyond me why so many people choose to ignore the manufacturers and listen to MotoMan.

I'm sure no one will argue your assertion that virtually every manufacturer recommends an easy break in procedure. But I was actually wondering if you have references to support the first part of your post:

Originally Posted by 07STILimited

Many cars dyno higher at 30,000 miles than they do at 1,000. This is because as the engine begins to wear it loosens up. A hard break in usually will make you end up with less power. In the rare cases that it doesn't it's only because you have simulated 30k miles of wear on your engine and it is looser than an engine that was properly broken in. Whatever the case you have significantly lessened the life of your engine...

Does anyone know of dyno comparison studies of identical engines making more power with easier break-in vs. hard break-in?

Or the "rare case" where the opposite occurs. When you say that it's because you have simulated 30k miles of wear, do you mean that in a hard first 1k you have managed to simulate 30k miles with an easy break in? How does that happen? What factors combine within the engine to create such a rare case?

What do you mean by "looser"? Wouldn't a looser engine be more prone to oil leaks, around the rings for example. What do you think of the photos of piston rings on Motoman's pages? Do you think somehow he mixed up the photos and/or history of the engine internals he shows on his pages? Is he being intentionally deceptive? Or perhaps he simply found a few of the rare examples you mention. Do any of his assertions have merit, or is he simply, as you say, an idiot?

Perhaps Motoman is less credible because of poorly written and presented webpages? Maybe it was a mistake to call himself the "Motoman". How about "Dr. Motoman, PhD. Internal Combustion Engine Mechanics". Maybe he's really quite knowledgeable about engines and everything he claims has borne out in his research, but he simply doesn't know how to present his ideas. Maybe he should have cleaned up a bit more before he let his picture be taken for the website? Hired a photographer and a web designer? Put on a more professional appearance for more credibility?

In any case, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I haven't made up my mind yet, was just wondering if you are basing your opinion on more evidence than manufacturer recommendations, for example dyno studies, engine tear down examinations, etc. Perhaps the manufacturers have done such studies? I'm sure there's abundant anecdotal evidence on both sides, as already evidenced in this thread. Cheers.

[Sti loves to Ax]

I broke my '04 engine the hard way. I followed the procedure many motorcycle test writers/editors use on new bikes in their test fleets.
I've got 30,000 miles, 5 years of hard use on my engine. 11,000 of those miles at stage 2power levels with no oil consumption between changes. I should point out that I used dino oil for the first 5,000 miles before switching to synthetic. There have been at least three different brands of synthetic oils in my engine with no consumption between changes.

Also if this matters to the OP, I've been AXing my car for the 5 years, 3 years with my wife as a co-driver. The car has literally seen at least 1,000 runs at WOT with out issues with the motor.

I used a method of applying full throttle at 3-4,000 rpms for a couple seconds then coasting with no throttle pressure for 5-6 seconds. Repeated 10-15 times then ran the car normally since then.

The full throttle builds cylinder pressure which helps to seat the piston rings while the coasting immediately afterwards avoids building up too much heat in the cylinders.

Disclaimer: This method worked for me but your results may vary. Use whatever method puts your mind at ease the most.

[Turninconcepts.com]

i have actually noticed that the engines that have been broken in hard consume less oil over time than those broken in "easy". No real data behind this, just what I have observerd.

I had my 08 strapped to the dyno with 633 miles on it. Put down good numbers. 10000 miles later it is still going very strong. Has seen track days and autox's and consumes no oil over the course of 3000 miles.

I changed the oil at 1000 miles using dino oil and at 3000 using dino. I switched to synthetic at the last change just before the track day I did last month.

Tony

[Bownse]

Originally Posted by will12345

i think its a valid theory..i know many motor builders that build race motors and myself having built motors, that will see the track the very next day..theres no way to break in a motor "easy" in that situation. if the motors build properly than youre good to go

the main difference is that race motors aren't expected to go 200,000 miles without major overhauls.

[07STILimited]

Originally Posted by 008STI

I'm sure no one will argue your assertion that virtually every manufacturer recommends an easy break in procedure. But I was actually wondering if you have references to support the first part of your post:


Does anyone know of dyno comparison studies of identical engines making more power with easier break-in vs. hard break-in?

Okay, to be completely honest this is just what I have read and seen. I have not spent $100,000 doing a technical study or anything. The countless billions that have been spent on R&D by manufactures should be significant to you. In order to believe motoman you have to believe that every single manufacturer in the world is either completely incompetent or is intentionally deceiving its customers. Of course this makes no sense since the manufactures warranty the engines and want them to make as much power and be as reliable as possible. It really seems like arguing with these motoman loyal people is like arguing with the people who think we've never been to the moon. It doesn't matter how many facts or numbers you throw at them they still believe what they believe.

Originally Posted by 008STI

What do you think of the photos of piston rings on Motoman's pages? Do you think somehow he mixed up the photos and/or history of the engine internals he shows on his pages? Is he being intentionally deceptive? Or perhaps he simply found a few of the rare examples you mention. Do any of his assertions have merit, or is he simply, as you say, an idiot?

A better question would be why does every single manufacturer in the world disagree with him? This is the real question that can not be answered by people who believe motoman.

Originally Posted by 008STI

Perhaps Motoman is less credible because of poorly written and presented webpages? Maybe it was a mistake to call himself the "Motoman". How about "Dr. Motoman, PhD. Internal Combustion Engine Mechanics". Maybe he's really quite knowledgeable about engines and everything he claims has borne out in his research, but he simply doesn't know how to present his ideas. Maybe he should have cleaned up a bit more before he let his picture be taken for the website? Hired a photographer and a web designer? Put on a more professional appearance for more credibility?

He still wouldn't be credible. I might find it slightly less hilarious that people actually listen to him and I might actually start to feel bad they are screwing up their cars.

Originally Posted by 008STI

In any case, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I haven't made up my mind yet, was just wondering if you are basing your opinion on more evidence than manufacturer recommendations, for example dyno studies, engine tear down examinations, etc. Perhaps the manufacturers have done such studies? I'm sure there's abundant anecdotal evidence on both sides, as already evidenced in this thread. Cheers.

What do you think they base their recommendations on? Do you believe that motoman has done more R&D than all the car manufacturers in the world put together? Absurd

Anyway... you want a real life story that has nothing to do with the people who design the cars? After all who would want to believe the people who design and warranty all the engines we are talking about? That would just be silly. Here is your real life example:

Originally Posted by Sleeper in Seattle

I actually had my engine broken in exactly how motorman described.... While I was signing the paper work, a very trusted friend followed the breakin proceedure to a T. We let it cool after wards, and did another round going in stages up the rpms- after letting it get back up to operating temp. Then we changed the oil. My car ultimately (an 06) made less power than his 05 which he broke in gently.

I see how the break in proceedure makes sense, but I don't really subscribe to the whole belief any more- at least not with boxer engines....

For my next engine, I will break it in gently, unless the engine builder tells me otherwise....

my 2 cents

[SirMattieP]

Ouch, PWNED! All for good fun right? haha

[pwn]

Originally Posted by SirMattieP

Ouch, PWNED! All for good fun right? haha

How do you figure that? This guy just repeats himself over and over and over! He has a dumbass case! Go back and reread his response, its just repetition. He has nothing backing his case. Not to mention he expects someone to believe that just because one dude made less power than a previous year sti because he broke it in hard makes his case valid? Engines vary, not all engines are alike. 07Stilimited's argument was full of flaws from the beginning, and 008sti exposed all of them. Take a seat.

[pwn]

Originally Posted by SirMattieP

Ouch, PWNED! All for good fun right? haha

...btw...my name...ehem. :P

lol

[JWA]

I'm still waiting to hear about these racing gopeds .

[pwn]

Originally Posted by JWA

I'm still waiting to hear about these racing gopeds .

I used to have one . It had over 2x the horsepower it came with from the factory, which was still next to nothing :P. They were fun little toys though.