[BigSky]

Gary S was running 700/650 springs (over DMS customed valved 50's) when competing in the 2003 USTCC, I believe he may have run even firmer rates in 2002???

[ace996]

Originally Posted by stretch

I'm not trying to start anything; I'm just anxious to see your data logs for the reason stated. I know a lot of autocross guys run even stiffer setups, but I've never seen the results backed up with data. That's what has me excited.

You could run a solid suspension like a go-kart (who doesn't like the immediacy of a go-kart!), but do you really think it'll be faster? That line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm sure you'll agree that a lot of guys are able to win in spite of their suspension due to good driving. Heck, anyone who's ever won on a under-modified car also falls into this category. So, it's hard to take anything away from, "I won because of this suspension," which is a common but sometimes misleading opinion. I mean, look at some of the winning guys that run cheap Korean/Taiwanese coilovers for an example of that. Heck, I'm reading an autocross book right now where the author says, "You can never have too much rebound damping." Ugh.

Anyway, I just look forward to seeing the actual data and whether it confirms conventional spring frequency theory. I wouldn't have posted here if not for that; it's your PerformanceBox (which I understand is really good) that makes this so educational.

Stretch,
Just funnin' with you, brother...it's all good. I've read plenty of your posts and I respect your approach. I'm also a student of the chasis and am trying to figure this STI out...I've done the mid-engine, front-engine/rearwd, and now the front-engine/allwd, and all take a different approach. I've always checked the results with datalogging, so this'll be fun. And the PBox is all it's cracked-up to be...a phenomenal tool that also allows me to lap-time. Check it out...

Yep, some of those drivers who run suspensions bordering on "locked", and still win are gifted...but I've found that it really comes down to "fitting the car to the driver" rather than the alternative. I used to roadrace a Ducati and liked my suspension on the "stiff" side...not crazy, but more than the norm. I tried my friend's Duck, who ran very similar times, and his suspension was beyond soft...but it worked for him and he liked it. When he rode my bike, he didn't like it..found it scary..and never would ride it again. Different strokes...
Bottom line, I like my vehicles on the stiff side and then rely on smoothness to dance on the line of control. My co-driver of two cars-past, was more of a "loose" driver and initially found it difficult to drive my car but adjusted well enough to be competition. Classic example - I owned the events in the rain, in a stiffly sprung MR-Spyder..on slicks...all from being smooth.

We'll see howthis goes...

Be good,
TomK

We'll see how it goes...

Be good,
TomK

[stretch]

Do you run on a pretty smooth lot? I ask because without bumps, I think the fastest suspension really would be a solid one.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by stretch

Do you run on a pretty smooth lot? I ask because without bumps, I think the fastest suspension really would be a solid one.

No lot involved, the car is set up for the road course

[ace996]

Dan hit it on the head...the car has been set-up for roadcourse duty, although I am the head instructor for the NY-BMWCCA's autoxes and the SCCA(but not this year...I gotta fit in the family, too). With what I've done on the car, everything has been wth the purpose of building a roadcourse weapon..the ALK booted me out of SM and the methanol/water injection is not looked at too kindly in my region, either. The locals who have WRX/STIs set-up their cars very differently than I have - they run small rear bars or no bars...very little rear camber...and would run the 600 springs in the rear, 500s in the front (actually 10K fronts/12K rears is the popular autox flavor)...and toe-out in the rear. If I set-up my car like that, it would be a seriously frightening experience on the track. So I've abandoned the title-chase in my region to make my STI the best roadcourse car I can build on my budget, whilst staying married, and keeping a faint memory of a daily driver. Up to this point, I'veused the Re070s on the track and will soon be switching to my 245 R-comps...I haven't yet made the leap to 275s all around...haven't needed them, yet.

For reference, here's my current set-up:
Font/Rear
spring 600/500
bars 29mm/26mm
camber -2.5/-1.5
Toe +1/16//-1/16
Height 14/13.5, although car's been cornerweighted and corners are not exact now...I'll check the current corner heights tomorrow.



For autox, the lot I run on is not considered "smooth" but smooth enough for most of the players to be running really stiff set-ups. Yeah, if the lot is super smooth asphalt, brand new, then the stiffer the better. At that point, and even what many are running now, the tire is the main point of compliance. With the 600/500s, although they are higher than the typically accepted "spring frequency" norms, they are not completely out of the ballpark and damping does play a major roll, too.

I'm excited to see how this set-up works at Watkins Glen. I plan on running the stock tires, although they are thoroughy cooked...blue on the sidewalls, the first day and then switching to the r-comps on the second day. I'll be logging the whole time and will have video as well. The bad thing is that I haven't been at Watkins yet, so the data willbe new and no prior baseline to compare. Good news is that I'm going to Limerock in November, and I've been there before and have logs to compare.

this should be fun...

Be good,
TomK

[Andy STI]

Tom that sounds like a great set-up. Please keep us informed of how the new rates work for you. I, unfortunately, went with the middle rates because I decided to weigh more towards daily driving. Well that has changed and I now want stiffer. Myles just sent me some 500lbs springs so I will be doing the swap to go to 500/400 soon. My set up is similar but I use a 26 mm bar in the front and have -2.7 degrees of camber on 255 r-comps.

[ace996]

Originally Posted by Andy STI

Tom that sounds like a great set-up. Please keep us informed of how the new rates work for you. I, unfortunately, went with the middle rates because I decided to weigh more towards daily driving. Well that has changed and I now want stiffer. Myles just sent me some 500lbs springs so I will be doing the swap to go to 500/400 soon. My set up is similar but I use a 26 mm bar in the front and have -2.7 degrees of camber on 255 r-comps.

Yeah, it's tough not to go stiffer after a while...just the common progression. We'll all have a nice collection of springs after a while...

255s??? Not to go too off topic, but they fit OK? My race wheels are SSR-Comps 17x8.5 and I'm not sure the 255s would fit well without spacers.
Thanks,
TomK

[uncle lewie]

Do you ever autox at Englishtown?


Sorry for going off topic, Im reading all the facts cause I plan to buy these coilovers in the very near future.

[ace996]

Originally Posted by uncle lewie

Do you ever autox at Englishtown?


Sorry for going off topic, Im reading all the facts cause I plan to buy these coilovers in the very near future.

Never autoxed at Etown, traveling for an autox isn't something I'd normally do but I hear it's good fun. And the TarmacIIs really are that good, you'll be quite happy with them.

Be good,
TomK

[ace996]

Well, I've a little more to report...
I changed the settings on the struts a bit...some less comp / a bit more rebound.

Driving around town at normal speeds, the springs are very stiff...they certainly don't let me forget I went to a higher rate. But today was the first time I really drove the car with some aggression, and I really like how it felt.
Much like the Ducati 996 I owned, the suspension doesn't come into it's own until you start running some real speed. I hit a few choice spots, sweepers and ramps that I'm quite familiar with and it really opened my eyes...

This is not an everyday, around town, "let's go get some groceries" set-up...oh, no... It's a "let's absolutely punish this insolent tarmac for thinking it can do anything other than yield to the will of it's corner-carving master" set-up...

The level of communication of the tire/road interaction is quite intense but at speed, pushing the car a bit over what would normally be considered 'spirited', the feel is...(I have difficulty picking word for this so I'll try my best...)... awakened. Like the car has shaken it's dreams from it's hair in the early, first few minutes of morning and can now get to the business at hand. The first cigarette has been smoked and the caffeine from the morning's cup of coffee is doing it's job....

Awakened.

I really love this car...

Be good,
TomK

[Andy STI]

Awesome Tom. That is a great review.

I can't wait until I get my 500 lb front springs installed now.

[AndrewSS]

Hey Tom... I do have 600/500 on my T2's as well. I have had em on for a good while. They are def stiffer... really notice it around town. As much as I like a flat car I think I am going to go back to 500/400 I just think 600/500 is too much spring for me. The places I autocross are just too bumpy. I get some nasty bouncing on some corner exits around here. Not to mention I do believe that they are a bit underdamped with the T2 valving, you gotta use the UPPER range on the adjusters. I had em 3 clicks from full stiff on comp and rebound and I felt like it was wayyyy too bouncy (subsequent bounce from a bump). I actually run them at 1 click from full stiff now on comp. And rebound the same except for the rear which is a bit softer at 4 from stiff.

I plan to play with the adjusters a bit next event to finally make up my mind about em. I am 95% sure the 500/400 are going back on... I think it will be faster with more rate if I can loose the bad bouncing.

Hope that helps.

[ace996]

Andrew,
thanks for your input, I was waiting to see your results. One thing I've always noticed with stiffer springs is that compression NEEDS to be dialed back, as the spring now acts as a more prominent way to reduce compression of travel.
I'd be willing to bet that by dialing your compression down, and I'm talking about a good full turn down from where you are, that you'd aleviate most of your bounce. When I first had the springs installed, I noticed the same thing you're describing - I dialed back the compression a full half turn and upped the rebound by 6 clicks and that did wonders.
I'mstill playing with the settings, will be all weekend to prep for Watkns Glen, so I'll report back with my results.

Really, you don't need to slow the bump travel as much with stiffer springs but rebound calls for a stiffer setting. Dial that comp back a turn or turn and a half and you may be surprised by how much things change..and they will plenty!!!. Stiff springs and high compression really doesn't allow your suspension to compress, it throws the car upwards...like a mini-jump, and then the tight rebound doesn't drop fast enough to catch the "landing". Unlike the "stock-class" guys who need to run insane compression to act like a spring, we need to dial back the compression and let the spring absorb some more force.

Let me know how backing off compression works...

Thanks,
TomK

[AndrewSS]

Originally Posted by ace996

Andrew,
thanks for your input, I was waiting to see your results. One thing I've always noticed with stiffer springs is that compression NEEDS to be dialed back, as the spring now acts as a more prominent way to reduce compression of travel.
I'd be willing to bet that by dialing your compression down, and I'm talking about a good full turn down from where you are, that you'd aleviate most of your bounce. When I first had the springs installed, I noticed the same thing you're describing - I dialed back the compression a full half turn and upped the rebound by 6 clicks and that did wonders.
I'mstill playing with the settings, will be all weekend to prep for Watkns Glen, so I'll report back with my results.

Really, you don't need to slow the bump travel as much with stiffer springs but rebound calls for a stiffer setting. Dial that comp back a turn or turn and a half and you may be surprised by how much things change..and they will plenty!!!. Stiff springs and high compression really doesn't allow your suspension to compress, it throws the car upwards...like a mini-jump, and then the tight rebound doesn't drop fast enough to catch the "landing". Unlike the "stock-class" guys who need to run insane compression to act like a spring, we need to dial back the compression and let the spring absorb some more force.

Let me know how backing off compression works...

Thanks,
TomK

Thanks for the advice... I am going to try some settings at my next event to try to iron the bounce out... I will try what you have recommended, I gotta figure out what can work. I might just find that 500/400 will work well for me, we will see.

[2slow2curious]

Tom,when i rode in your car i was amazed at the handling.
I can't imagine it now.
See you Sunday.