[SWortham]

Originally Posted by stretch

That's basically the conclusion I arrived at too, Mykl.

We still don't know how much (if any) travel the Ohlins add, but now my concern would be the springs not allowing any extra travel regardless. It looks like the stock springs would facilitate about half an inch of extra travel, no more.

I hate making uninformed decisions which is exactly the reason I create these threads. Vendors keep their spring/shock/whatever specs secret like it's some great engineering feat, when actually they're just withholding the only useful information I'd want to know. In this case, older RCE springs were binding and this would have been discovered prior to market if the specs were just published as they should be. It astounds me how many people make such large purchases totally blind.

Ultimately, I went with a Ground Control setup because with GC, I basically got to design my own suspension! Like you said, if I experience coil bind it's my own damn fault for screwing up with the tape measure. I find it pretty incredible that RCE released springs capable of coil binding, whether it's seen in use or not. Again, you just need a tape measure! I was close to ordering those things prior to doing my own research and measuring things like bump travel, which no spring manufacturer will publish.

Faulty products are all over every facet of the automotive market because customers don't demand real data. I mean look at the tornado fuel savers and how many people still genuinely believe they work.

I don't think RCE can be put in the same boat as the Tornado Fuel Savers, lol. I think we've heard plenty of cases now where RCE has based their engineering on trial and error and in-house testing. If a problem does make it to production they've been very receptive to problems and take it upon themselves to correct it.

As for not publishing numbers, it's really a marketing decision. It's too bad for people like you and me who like to see numbers to back up the merit of a product. I'll always ask for the numbers when it comes to stuff like this because I like to be informed.

But at the same time the risk to RCE is that their product might not be perceived by the public to be as good as someone elses "on paper." The other concern is of course when you publish all the technical data you have you can make it very easy for a competitor to literally copy your numbers, send it off to a third-party spring manufacturer, and then brand it as their own. That's the sad truth, so I can see both sides of this.

[ESmooth]

^^^ Thats exactly why we at StopTech do not publish our caliper piston sizes. Theres a lot of time spent testing to come up with the sizes that we use that would be copied by all of the knock-off brands in a second if they were widely released, essentially eliminating what primarily sets us apart from our competitors.

[evilSTi7]

Originally Posted by stretch

Ah, gotchya. Well, that's good then. I thought you were referring to the "Blacks" as the revision(s). I'll edit the first post.

MTR, I see no evidence of binding on your springs. evilSTi7, you sure yours were binding? In a progressive spring, the "soft" coils are supposed to bind- that's how the soft progression terminates and the firm progression starts.

yea, i know the bottom coils are supposed to bind (and they were that way when the car was just sitting). It's been a while since i removed the tanabe's but i might still have pictures of them after i uninstalled them. I'll see if i can dig them up.

[Rootus]

'Tis all a business decision one way or another. If I cannot find the information I need on a product, I will go elsewhere. One thing I have learned in the past (the hard way, usually) is that just because someone else is happy, does not mean I will be. There are people driving on the crappiest roads in America that will tell you that Megan coilovers are just fine. I'd probably not agree. I want as much information as possible so I can have a reasonable chance at making the determination myself.

[MGizzle]

This is exactly why I hate buying aftermarket stuff for my cars. Too many times you find out the hard way and I hate paying for something that nobody bothered really "engineering".

I almost bought the RCE springs but after finding out that it is trial and error engineering I didn't. Not saying that they are bad, but that matters to me. SPC, environmental testing, and durability testing is VERY important to me and in my opinion should be to everyone. Issues like this would be found and that is why we are paying more money for the OEM stuff like the Pink springs (in this case not that much more).

I can not believe that somebody would not put the effort in to compress a spring or at least do the calculations to see when solid height is reached, because it can actually do really bad stuff to your car. There is no excuse for it and it could've been dealt with properly. RCE could've disclosed that these springs can reach solid height but it sounds like they didn't bother with it because they had track and autocross in mind.

Wow...stuff like this just leaves me with my head shaking. Good job Stretch.

[MGizzle]

Oh and a comment about the Stop Tech Brakes. It would take me less than a week with one of your calipers to get every single dimension on it, including the seals and the pistons. This is the 21st century man, stuff like that is not a secret anymore. Every Joe Schmo can buy time at a CMM or a Laser scanner and then return your product.

[Splash]

Oh stop it... Protecting one's "secrets" ain't it...

There's nothing stopping anyone from buying 1 set of Stoptech calipers and disassembling them, then having "similar" replicas made.

Likewise, any smart ass with a scale and a big vise can simply measure the rate curve, coil diameter, and coil count, then just have the spring replicated elsewhere.

When it comes to reverse-engineering, you can really only protect the complex items, and even then it depends on how much one is willing to spend to replicate something else.

Brake pistons and springs don't count.

[Mykl]

Originally Posted by ESmooth

^^^ Thats exactly why we at StopTech do not publish our caliper piston sizes. Theres a lot of time spent testing to come up with the sizes that we use that would be copied by all of the knock-off brands in a second if they were widely released, essentially eliminating what primarily sets us apart from our competitors.

So you don't publish something that your competitors could very easily figure out for themselves? If you're going to reverse engineer a product to design a knock-off, the first step is to actually purchase the product.

Stretch, I deleted that post because I wasn't sure if I put my thoughts out correctly. When I read posts like this I feel that I have the ideal setup for the Impreza. I have shortened dampers, with access to numbers that are vital for basic suspension tuning, and I'm running springs from a company whose marketing department isn't so paranoid that they won't give their target consumer the information they need. I can actually lower my car and not run into bump travel problems that any non dual height adjustable setup runs into. Currently my car is set at about 13.5" center of hub to fender with no bump stops, no spring bind issues, and enough bump stroke to not bottom out (unless I hit a *HUGE* bump, emphasis on *HUGE* because it's only happened once or twice since installing the parts).

I had actually considered purchasing a fixed perch Ohlins setup to replace it since my goals have changed to wanting something a little more set it and forget it friendly. But since it's pretty much impossible to purchase a set of components that work together without having to resort to trial and error, which means wasting money, I think I'm better off working with what I've got.

What's ridiculous is that the Ohlins setup I've considered costs $1800 and I can't even find stroke information on the product.

This "rant" is not directed at any vender/manufacturer in particular, because almost all of the companies producing parts specifically for the STi (not interchangeable with any other car, like strut inserts or coilover springs) does this, and it's frustrating. I guess all we can do is piss and moan about it until somebody finally gets the point.

[ESmooth]

We actually use dozens of different piston sizes across the applications we support. Sure, you can find what 1 particular caliper has for piston sizes on 1 application pretty easily, but it doesnt mean that you know what every combination used on all 400 kits are.

[SWortham]

Originally Posted by Mykl

What's ridiculous is that the Ohlins setup I've considered costs $1800 and I can't even find stroke information on the product.

I could've told you this if I had put a little more effort into it I guess. Stretch asked me for the same thing. I couldn't compress the strut by hand though, and I couldn't set it on the ground and push down on it because I would've damaged the adjuster. So I guess the combination of laziness, impatience, and the fact that I was feeling sick got the best of me.

[Mykl]

Originally Posted by SWortham

I could've told you this if I had put a little more effort into it I guess. I couldn't compress the strut by hand though, and I couldn't set it on the ground and push down on it because I would've damaged the adjuster. So I guess the combination of laziness and impatience got the best of me.

No worries man. Gas charged dampers are a pain to compress by hand eh?

Really, this information should be freely given by Ohlins.

[SWortham]

Originally Posted by Mykl

No worries man. Gas charged dampers are a pain to compress by hand eh?

Yeah, no joke. I was a bit surprised by that. I could easily compress all the twin-tube dampers I've handled before but not these monotubes. I've read that monotubes typically have more pressure, I just wasn't expecting THAT much. I was kinda thinking they may have been stuck... but all was well once they were on the car.

Anyway....

[Rootus]

Originally Posted by Mykl

But since it's pretty much impossible to purchase a set of components that work together without having to resort to trial and error, which means wasting money, I think I'm better off working with what I've got.

For this very reason, I am torn between getting a GC setup, or waiting for Prodrive to release the RB320 pieces. Prodrive is slooooooow, but it seems to me like they do spend some time engineering things to work together.

[Mykl]

Originally Posted by SWortham

Yeah, no joke. I was a bit surprised by that. I could easily compress all the twin-tube dampers I've handled before but not these monotubes. I've read that monotubes typically have more pressure, I just wasn't expecting THAT much. I was kinda thinking they may have been stuck... but all was well once they were on the car.

Anyway....

Yeah, my Konis aren't gas charged, so I can actually change out my spring rates without removing the coilover bodies from the car. Just unbolt the strut top nut, compress the strut, swap the spring, and bolt the top nut again. It's nice. Good old standard twin-tube non-inverted strut.

Originally Posted by Rootus

For this very reason, I am torn between getting a GC setup, or waiting for Prodrive to release the RB320 pieces. Prodrive is slooooooow, but it seems to me like they do spend some time engineering things to work together.

Well, out of all the companies I'd put faith in, Prodrive is up there on the list. It's nice to see a *huge* name manufacturer putting something like this together.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by MGizzle

This is exactly why I hate buying aftermarket stuff for my cars. Too many times you find out the hard way and I hate paying for something that nobody bothered really "engineering".

I almost bought the RCE springs but after finding out that it is trial and error engineering I didn't. Not saying that they are bad, but that matters to me. SPC, environmental testing, and durability testing is VERY important to me and in my opinion should be to everyone. Issues like this would be found and that is why we are paying more money for the OEM stuff like the Pink springs (in this case not that much more).

I can not believe that somebody would not put the effort in to compress a spring or at least do the calculations to see when solid height is reached, because it can actually do really bad stuff to your car. There is no excuse for it and it could've been dealt with properly. RCE could've disclosed that these springs can reach solid height but it sounds like they didn't bother with it because they had track and autocross in mind.

Wow...stuff like this just leaves me with my head shaking. Good job Stretch.

You make it sound as if we just came up with some random numbers in our head and sent them off to some factory in Taiwan for production These springs went through extensive testing and many prototypes before we were satisfied with the results. They are made by a very reputable manufacturer, whose engineers have probably forgotten more about suspensions than most of us will ever know. Trust me when I say that the engineering of these springs was NOT taken lightly.

That being said, further testing has revealed that there is some room for improvement, which is why we are going to the 5 coil design. Just as some of the biggest manufacturers in the industry are constantly evolving and improving upon their products, that is what we try to do. I don't mean to sound argumentative but I do take it personally on some level when we are accused of not doing our homework when it comes to designing products. I can't speak for Myles but I will say that he takes great pride in what he does and works extremely hard to try to make the best products possible.

-Dan