[twiSTies]

Before I switched to the coilovers, I noticed that my car would lose traction up front way before it would in the rear. Since I've switched to coilovers, I've noticed that while the limits are much higher, the front still loses traction before the rear. I have my swaybars set at 29mm up front and 24mm out back. Alignment was -1.6 front, 0 degrees toe all around, 5.1 caster, and -1.6 rear. Tire pressures are stock, 36/30 on RE070's. What can be done to increase front-end grip and reduce the understeer?

Thanks!

[stretch]

This really does cover just about everything:
http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm

Obviously more camber up front would help (you could probably use another degree), but you may not want that on a street car.

Traditionally, I'd recommend an increase in your rear sway bar size or decrease in your front sway bar size. I'd consider this the "correct" solution- you're running understeer-prone sway bar rates with your current setup. However, it seems a lot of people here have problems with spinning the inside rear tire when getting back under throttle (on corner exit) unless they run a tiny rear bar and big front bar. So, you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place- which problem would you rather have?

At least adjusting your sways is quick and easy. Try setting your front to 27mm and your rear to 26mm. If that's too much, back off the rear to 24mm.

If you find yourself getting excessive inside rear wheel slip on throttle, there are ways to reduce that. Reduce the rebound damping in the rear, for starters. I'm sure a new limited slip differential is out of your budget, but you may find some cheap ways to lower your center of gravity. Lower your rear ride height, ditch the heavy and tall wing, and consider running tiny rear wheel spacers. Every little bit will help reduce weight transfer back there.

If you're getting push on corner entry (but not steady state), then the ALK will be your trick.

[RyanLee]

Originally Posted by stretch

This really does cover just about everything:
http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm

Obviously more camber up front would help (you could probably use another degree), but you may not want that on a street car.

Traditionally, I'd recommend an increase in your rear sway bar size or decrease in your front sway bar size. I'd consider this the "correct" solution- you're running understeer-prone sway bar rates with your current setup. However, it seems a lot of people here have problems with spinning the inside rear tire when getting back under throttle (on corner exit) unless they run a tiny rear bar and big front bar. So, you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place- which problem would you rather have?

At least adjusting your sways is quick and easy. Try setting your front to 27mm and your rear to 26mm. If that's too much, back off the rear to 24mm.

If you find yourself getting excessive inside rear wheel slip on throttle, there are ways to reduce that. Reduce the rebound damping in the rear, for starters. I'm sure a new limited slip differential is out of your budget, but you may find some cheap ways to lower your center of gravity. Lower your rear ride height, ditch the heavy and tall wing, and consider running tiny rear wheel spacers. Every little bit will help reduce weight transfer back there.

If you're getting push on corner entry (but not steady state), then the ALK will be your trick.

totally agreed!!

[Boxer]

Have you tried playing with tire pressures? The 070s behave very differently with pressure changes. Bump up the rears to 36/37 and leave the fronts at 36. Don't like it? Decrease rear pressures by 1-2 lbs. until you find what you like.

[psuLemon]

Just my input, driving habits play a huge roll in this too, as well as tire pressure and sways. For example (this is a daily example as I drive the road every day), I have found that when I ease my car into a turn (hitting the apex) and throttle the car , the front end tends to slide, but when I enter the apex the same way, but more throw my front of my car, it tend to grip more. I have toyo proxy 4's so the walls are not very stiff, but I run 36psi all around. I feel it give me more control. I am also on a stock suspension. Let Stretch said, play with the sway settings to see if they will appeal to your driving habits more.

[RdRacer301]

Originally Posted by stretch

This really does cover just about everything:
http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm

Obviously more camber up front would help (you could probably use another degree), but you may not want that on a street car.

Traditionally, I'd recommend an increase in your rear sway bar size or decrease in your front sway bar size. I'd consider this the "correct" solution- you're running understeer-prone sway bar rates with your current setup. However, it seems a lot of people here have problems with spinning the inside rear tire when getting back under throttle (on corner exit) unless they run a tiny rear bar and big front bar. So, you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place- which problem would you rather have?

At least adjusting your sways is quick and easy. Try setting your front to 27mm and your rear to 26mm. If that's too much, back off the rear to 24mm.

If you find yourself getting excessive inside rear wheel slip on throttle, there are ways to reduce that. Reduce the rebound damping in the rear, for starters. I'm sure a new limited slip differential is out of your budget, but you may find some cheap ways to lower your center of gravity. Lower your rear ride height, ditch the heavy and tall wing, and consider running tiny rear wheel spacers. Every little bit will help reduce weight transfer back there.

If you're getting push on corner entry (but not steady state), then the ALK will be your trick.

I was gonna come in here and act like I knew a lil something about suspension, but once again stretch has this down.

I had that problem, especially in T1-T2 @ VIR. I guess the WL 27mm RSB is the culprit. But I've added CL X-Brace, so I'm hoping that the rear inside wheel won't get so unloaded to lose traction

To the OP, I would try to run another -.5 of camber up front. I doubt you will be too concerned about the small increase in tire wear. Frequent rotation helps out a little. I'm running -2.7. I'll trade a little more tire wear for better handling (really, it's not that much).

[twiSTies]

Thanks guys, I'm going to try adjusting the swaybars first. I don't want to deal with spacers on the stock subframe so the ALK won't be going in until I get an aftermarket one.

[SWortham]

I agree with those who say more negative camber up front. Even when running -2 degrees camber I'm wearing out the outside edges of the tires during autocross days faster than I'd ever wear the inside edges driving on the street.

Of course it may be that your car will always have a tendency towards understeer for your "street" configuration and that's not a bad thing. But when it comes to autocrossing, for example, there are a few things that can make a big difference. First is you should find the optimal tire pressures for the front tires where you get optimal grip. This could be determined on a skidpad at an SCCA autox test-n-tune day. Then you can over-inflate the rear tires to obtain the slight oversteer upon turn-in that's so desirable for autocrossing.

The other thing that will help a lot is to adjust the front toe settings for a little toe out (perhaps 1/8" toe out up front). It will drastically improve turn-in and allow the front tires to pull you out of a corner better as well. I wouldn't suggest driving around on the street like this though because it will kill your tires pretty quickly. Some people will mark the tie rod ends for their desired toe for both street driving and autocrossing. And then when race day comes along they can make the adjustment for their autocross setting right there at the event.

[twiSTies]

Awesome, I'll try out more camber and see how tire wear is affected--I'm going to need new tires at the end of this season anyway.

[RallyMe]

I know this is kind of a round about way to answer your question...but you can always lose some grip in the rear as well. You can back off you're rear camber to -1.0. This effectively changes the grip balance of the car and will make the front seem to grip more, especially if you add even more camber up front.

[SWortham]

Originally Posted by RallyMe

I know this is kind of a round about way to answer your question...but you can always lose some grip in the rear as well. You can back off you're rear camber to -1.0. This effectively changes the grip balance of the car and will make the front seem to grip more, especially if you add even more camber up front.

I've seen a lot of people recommend this but I remain skeptical because I didn't have such a good experience with this on my last car. I found it had two problems -- the car exhibited more snap oversteer (not the effect I was looking for) and the outside edges of the rear tires would wear too much.

However, if you simply bump up the rear tire pressures to increase oversteer for autocross days it should help prolong tire life compared to giving up the camber. And if my prior experience is any measure I think it should even be more predictable at the limit as well.

[RaceComp Engineering]

I've noticed that with most coilovers, the Whiteline front bar on 29mm is too much, the 27mm setting feels a lot better. On top of that, bump up your front camber to -2.0 or 2.5 and raise your rear tire pressure to 33 or 34 psi. As far as the ALK, the subframe spacers really aren't bad. My car is fairly low and I have never scraped the subframe, even on speedbumps.

-Dan

[AndrewSS]

I agree with the idea that you need more front negative... however what are the goals? -3.0 ish for competition seems about right.

[Drag-On]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

I've noticed that with most coilovers, the Whiteline front bar on 29mm is too much, the 27mm setting feels a lot better.

-Dan

I second this. When I had my front sways set to 29mm, I noticed I had more understeer. I currently run 27mm on a daily basis and I favor this setting over 29mm.

[twiSTies]

Originally Posted by AndrewSS

I agree with the idea that you need more front negative... however what are the goals? -3.0 ish for competition seems about right.

the goals are for the car to behave more like a rwd and not lose traction up front on corner entry i wonder if the plates can do -3...something to look into for sure.

thanks for everyones help, i'm going to bump the bar down to 27mm and get more neg. camber up front with these plates. ....maybe I'll throw in that ALK finally, too.