[topend]

this thread is a good read. *subscribes for future reference*

[ex-rex]

Originally Posted by stretch

On the cheap, cut your stock bump stops instead of buying Ohlins.

actually, my struts are creaking when i drive around with 3 and 4 people in the car, which drives me crazy. the struts are getting replaced as soon as possible.

[stretch]

Originally Posted by ex-rex

actually, my struts are creaking when i drive around with 3 and 4 people in the car, which drives me crazy. the struts are getting replaced as soon as possible.

While trimming/replacing your bump stops, re-pack the insides of your struts with grease. You'll be at the source of the squeak already.

I actually replaced my rear struts with Koni's only to find the rears were in great shape- no clunking, squeaking, or other noises. The fronts were making slight grinding noises but repacking them with grease fixed 'em.

[Greg]

Originally Posted by ex-rex

<----owned

thanks for the detailed explanation. your last post explains your point a lot better than before.

Ex-Rex,

Not everyone in the STI community places so much weight on the significance of bump stops. If you read the entire bumpstop thread, you will not see any vendors chiming in, supporting the conclusions. Nor will you see any owners of PINKs, RCE, Prodrive, or COBB springs saying their after-market springs don't handle as well as the STOCK springs because they ride the bumps stops more. You also won’t see any comparison of lap times, or lateral G ratings for stock springs vs aftermarket springs with all the possible combinations of bump stops. Ride quality issues aside, the performance advantages of a quality aftermarket spring, over the stock spring, has never been in question. We’ve got enough STI owners tracking and autocrossing their cars that if aftermarket springs reduced performance, we’d be hearing about it.

It’s presumptuous to think designers of aftermarket springs never considered the effects of bump stops in their wheel rate calculations. Clearly Prodrive gave it some thought as evidenced by their inclusion of a smaller bumpstops with their springs. In fact Prodrive can be credited for starting the bumpstop craze by packaging a modded bumpstop with their springs. As for the RCE springs, much has been said about the thought that was put into their design. As their wheel rates are not published, nor would you expect them to fully explain how bump stops contribute to the performance of the end product. At some point you have to trust the vendor and just test out their product. Sell it if you don’t like it. Instead of hashing over bump stop lengths, a better question is; “How well does the product meet its stated objectives?” For any one of the top springs, you really don’t have go far to find the answer to that question.

I don't dispute that bump stops and limited suspension travel play a roll. What bothers me is that it topic has been elevated to point where it is blamed for nearly all of the popular complaints about the STI's handling. There are the many root causes of the STI’s handling issues, and the bump stops are only one of them. Depending on the ride quality and performance goals, it could be a minor one at that. Bump stops don’t address the negative effects of anti lift/dive, nor do they address the camber issues inherent with the MacPherson strut design. In fact, a shorter bump stop could even make the camber issues worse by allowing the strut to travel further into the positive camber zone. Affects on bobblehead? As group we cannot even agree on the definition of bobblehead.

Long dissertation aside, if you need extra height for snow, then there’s no aftermarket spring for you (at least today). Combining the stock springs with the Ohlins along with decent sized bars and the ALK, would be a phenomenal improvement over stock. If you end up tracking the car, the stock springs may be a little light. A friend my mine has the Pinks with Ohlins and feels they are too soft for the track.

[stretch]

Springs drastically change the feel of the car. Springs do make a car feel faster. But is feeling faster actually faster? I think often the feeling of going fast is simply the feeling of reduced control or the driver pushing the car harder. I've certainly be fooled before.

I won't be able to get comparitive lap times for you, sorry. I'd honestly love to. On my last car (a Mazda6), I did experience rather dramatic improvement in how competitive I was in autocross (STX) after temporarily switching back to stock springs. It felt to me like I was going slower, but I was suddenly a trophy contender.

The funny thing is, I swore those lowering springs even improved ride quality until I removed them. Small bumps didn't feel so big anymore. The ride quality on lowering springs is more different than improved- instead of the suspension compressing to absorb the bump, the car catapults upwards off of bumps. It must do this because no bump travel is left on the strut.

Now, I found that my STI (with 13k miles) was underdamped when it hit the bump stops- very visible by watching the headlights oscillate a second time after going over a speed bump. Since lowering cars are always on the bump stops- even into their rebound travel- it may explain why some thing lowering springs help the car's ride quality. Underdamped cars ride well at the expense of car control.

Anyway, lesson learned. There's lots of advice out there contrary to mine, so I understand if you're skeptical.

I do, however, find it a little disappointing that you'd trust vendors, who are trying to make money, over some schmuck on the internet (me!) with nothing to gain. I don't mean to criticize the vendors, as they are helpful in many ways, but let's be honest: they need to make money. They need to make money by selling things to you, and that means hyping what they sell. Some of the products are fantastic, others... not so much. Surely you can think of examples of both! Springs are hot sellers and very profitable. They even have high customer satisfaction: they feel fast and lowered STI's look incredible. I can't argue that! But Tein, at least, labels their springs "Style Master". While I like their honest approach- marketing springs as show car items- it doesn't seem like smart marketing.

Maybe you should ask yourself why the original "vendors"- Subaru, Porsche, Mazda, and others- don't have their cars lowered farther from the factory? I'm not talking about ground clearance, I'm talking about suspension travel and the required fender gap to support it. RX-8's and Miata's have huge amounts of ugly fender gap to support lots of suspension travel- why? Did they not do their research? Then there's also Prodrive, whose springs offer an extremely mild drop yet still come with shorter, softer bump stops. Why'd they do that?

Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic at hand, but before the question comes back- I think Subaru used the larger, firm bump stop up front to deliberately prevent oversteer on throttle lift (at the expense of terminal understeer on corner entry). Again, this is just my guess, but I think it was a safeguard against irresponsible drivers at the expense of the enthusiast who knows how to drive.

In the other bump stop thread (Edit: this post), I've charted out exactly what your spring rates are stock and with lowering springs. The results speak for themselves if you know how spring rates affect the car's behavior.

I've written more on the subject here:
All lowering springs (and even stock springs) ride on the bump stops!
Stretch's Notes
Stretch's Notes

[twiSTies]

Originally Posted by stretch

Springs drastically change the feel of the car. Springs do make a car feel faster. But is feeling faster actually faster? I think often the feeling of going fast is simply the feeling of reduced control or the driver pushing the car harder. I've certainly be fooled before.

I won't be able to get comparitive lap times for you, sorry. I'd honestly love to.

There are improved lap times with lowering springs over stock springs. Scott Seigel has already mentioned this in his suspension stages and in reviews.

[stretch]

Originally Posted by twiSTies

There are improved lap times with lowering springs over stock springs. Scott Seigel has already mentioned this in his suspension stages and in reviews.

Was the alignment the same? If so, then the pros of lowering springs outweighed the cons on that track. This isn't too surprising. Lowering does have numerous, significant benefits, no doubt about it. However, there are ways to lower the car properly, and mere lowering springs without first adding bump travel is the worst way to do it.

But still, we're talking lap times on a relatively smooth course, I bet. This thread is for a street setup where the car will be cornering on bumpy roads. Bumpy roads need suspension travel or the car will skip around in turns. Smooth roads need very little suspension travel.

For a smooth track (and combined with large sways to reduce all the jacking forces), the case for lowering springs is much stronger. The guy who started this topic, however, specifically said: "My car will probably never see any real track time."

For "street/country roads/canyon runs", I'd take stock springs over lowering springs. In such a case, I'd bet the cons of lowering springs far outweigh the pros. Just remember to combine them with moderate sways since you'll need the boost in roll resistance!

I suppose another ultimate street setup would be KW coilovers, because- correct me if I'm wrong- they have more bump stroke than stock. I touched on this earlier- twin tube damper designs allow more stroke. Thus, KW coilovers- I think- allow you to lower the car a small amount while still gaining linear suspension travel. Zzyzx coilovers probably do too since they're twin-tubes as well. But for a street setup, I personally prefer softer springs with incredible dampers- hence my recommendation of stock springs with Ohlins. However, KW's (with a wisely chosen ride height) would be a more extreme yet still very good street setup and would certainly be my choice for a car that sees light track use.

[Neanderthal Racing]

Ultimate Street Suspension?

mine