[944turboguy]

I instruct at Summit Point Raceway, and for various clubs, Porsche, Ferrari,BMW, Mazda,CARGUYS,.VW,.etc,..and one thing that blows my mind is when I see a student with a coilover set up, 3k, sometimes 6k on a very well prepared steet-track day car,.and after a small conversation, where they proceed to explain all the "car" modifications,..you discover that the suspension was never corner balanced, AND the alignment specs, are barely anything to write home about either. So after SubyDude's thread on NASIOC, I figured I'd ask the question to the dedicated STI forum. So as I put on my 3 layer "flame proof suit", I will say this, if anyone knows me, or has followed my post from I-club to Nasioc, to this forum,.most of my "track" threads are aimed at helping people and not busting b- --s,..so its a friendly thing, anf hopefully no -one takes it the wrong way. I was looking for feedback on who has corner balanced and who hasnt,.......I will state my .02 cents,..If you have "CO's" and participate in track events, and have big brakes, and lines, and fluid, and seats, and all the "track stuff",.but your suspension isnt dialed in,.its so counter productive, one couldnt imagine, and while this seems like an obvious thing, ALOT dont get it.

944 turbo guy

[944turboguy]

(tumble weed, floating across the desert,...with wind blowing sounds)

[ashumo]

i saw a post where the guy took pictures of his readings after he cornerbalanced. it was either on here or nasioc, dont remember, was just like last week. anyways, the other day i was talking with some guy with a gti and he had coilovers on and never did an alignment or cornerbalance. an alignment is so vital and costs like 55 bucks.

[Oldirty]

Originally Posted by 944turboguy

(tumble weed, floating across the desert,...with wind blowing sounds)

(deserted western town... one lone cowboy riding in from the distance... his horse desperately needing a corner balance...)

[In2Deep]

Mine was corner balanced by Progress Auto Group. They set my car up perfectly

Mario

[ERacer]

Originally Posted by 944turboguy

I instruct at Summit Point Raceway, and for various clubs, Porsche, Ferrari,BMW, Mazda,CARGUYS,.VW,.etc,..and one thing that blows my mind is when I see a student with a coilover set up, 3k, sometimes 6k on a very well prepared steet-track day car,.and after a small conversation, where they proceed to explain all the "car" modifications,..you discover that the suspension was never corner balanced, AND the alignment specs, are barely anything to write home about either. So after SubyDude's thread on NASIOC, I figured I'd ask the question to the dedicated STI forum. So as I put on my 3 layer "flame proof suit", I will say this, if anyone knows me, or has followed my post from I-club to Nasioc, to this forum,.most of my "track" threads are aimed at helping people and not busting b- --s,..so its a friendly thing, anf hopefully no -one takes it the wrong way. I was looking for feedback on who has corner balanced and who hasnt,.......I will state my .02 cents,..If you have "CO's" and participate in track events, and have big brakes, and lines, and fluid, and seats, and all the "track stuff",.but your suspension isnt dialed in,.its so counter productive, one couldnt imagine, and while this seems like an obvious thing, ALOT dont get it.

944 turbo guy

I just can’t figure out some people. Why even bother with an adjustable suspension unless you are going to corner balance. Besides the fact that a properly sorted out track setup is far from an ideal street setup. Not to mention changes for different track or weather conditions.

[4MLA1FN]

Originally Posted by ashumo

i saw a post where the guy took pictures of his readings after he cornerbalanced...

yep, that was FT. here's the thread. i don't have COs. probably never will. pinks, bars, and tires are all i'll be doing re suspension/handling. but i agree with myles' sentiment. in fact, shouldn't having COs without corner balancing be considered a form of rice?

[TreyS]

n00b question......


so how do you "shift" the weight to balance the car? Is that even desirable, I mean, do you want a perfect 50/50 weight distrabution from left to right and front to rear? Is that the overall goal?
I opted not to go with a C/O setup mainly because I know I wouldn't take the time to use it as designed other than ride height. If I can get my mind around the whole corner balanced deal, I may opt to get them next season.

Auto-X starts today here in Atlanta so the pinks will have to do for now.

[FT@SGP]

Myles, has a point, but I do not agree with him totally.

Doing springs only give you a marginally increased roll resistance and that is about it. That increased roll resistance is only useful in Interstate ramps or long sweepers. Transitional balance is handled with the bump/rebound settings of the shocks. So without "adjustable" COs you cannot even think of adjusting those.

Many in the US, non-racers, are not used to adjusting those settings; hence they do not grasp the benefits. COs wave is just starting in the US, believe me, for the masses. That, IMHO, has to do with the accessibility or familiarity of the public with motorsports. I won't go into the details of this particular social change, but it is happening, and mostly thanks for autocrosses, car clubs and HPDEs.

When we organized a go-kart event, it was amazing for me to find out that 90% of the participants had never done it before. That wave is catching on as well.

Height or bump or rebound or all adjustability are invaluable wheather you go to the track or not for enthusiasts IMHO. Imagine having the capability to adjust your bump settings per road condition, motorsport event type, or even for rain/dry conditions on the street. If you think that simple bump adjustments won't make a difference, you can come drive our car with various settings and have a first-hand feel; we can alter the entire handling characteristics of the vehicle with them, with just a simple knob turn

If these bump/rebound adjustments were not critical, why would companies like Prodrive spend enourmous R&D money on electro-magnetic shocks? Koni, Ohlin, Penske, etc. all made a name for themselves over the years as the premium shock manufacturers,not springs (manufacturing springs is probably the simplest thing to do actually, there is not much special about them). Racers all around the world spend more money on getting double-, triple-, quad-adjustable shocks (it is common to find $8000 shocks per corner on GT cars, springs are still $80-100 ). If they were to prioritize their spending, shocks always take first place besides safety features and engine improvements.

Shocks are the first key to chassis balance, they are that important. In my opinion, they are the first item to think of when tuning the chassis. The amount of flexibility, even single-adjustable units, they give is something that has not been available to the masses for long time, similar to the STi bringing racecar level performance to the masses.

Granted, if one purchases a coilover primarily for the looks of a lower ride, yes that may be ricey. But don't think that just because someone does not corner balance their car it is useless. As we showed previously, the stock STi is out balance, all factory cars are. Corner balancing is only important if you want to extract the last bits of performance out of your suspension system; and if you have the technical ability, then why not ?

Also, I always believe that rather than doing springs-only upgrade, one should also get matching shocks; so even if it is for looks, it is still better to spend money in that matter, but that is just me of course. As I said, shocks are much more important than the springs.

Single adjustable shocks are relatively easy to setup for various conditions that you don't need to know a lot about suspension systems to make relatively correct adjustments.

But, if you are just a street driver, do all this matter? Depends on the person, but if they don't, then why even bother with springs? Pink springs and Group-N top mounts with installation will cost somewhere aroung $850 to $1000. I cannot justify that cost to myself, and for that reason, I don't even market the springs we actually carry. The benefits one gets out of springs-only upgrade are so limited that, I think that $1000 would be better spent on control arms, A/R bars, caster systems, etc.

"Dialing in" a simple suspension is not rocket science, if it was, many racers would not able to race

But then again it is just my opinion

[bitabur]

Originally Posted by FT@SGP

Height or bump or rebound or all adjustability are invaluable wheather you go to the track or not for enthusiasts IMHO. Imagine having the capability to adjust your bump settings per road condition, motorsport event type, or even for rain/dry conditions on the street. If you think that simple bump adjustments won't make a difference, you can come drive our car with various settings and have a first-hand feel; we can alter the entire handling characteristics of the vehicle with them, with just a simple knob turn

Ok, I think simple bump adjustments won't make a difference. Where should I come to drive your car?

[FT@SGP]

LOL, any time once it comes off the body shop; we are in Germantown MD, might be a long drive for you

[bitabur]

Yes, it would be quite a long trip..... damn.


Well, if I'm ever in the area, I'll be sure to stop by, if not just to go for a ridealong and to check out your car.

[FT@SGP]

You are on, any time

[sparks]

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/p/sparks_i...hted%20STi.htm

[944turboguy]

I am not saying for a second that the Sti pink springs are bad, or not enough,.actually contrare,....with the right combination, I've seen them out perform a non -corner balanced car all day long. But for the person who expects to only do pinks and go to the track, and run down Bill Auberlen,..it aint gonna happen. I think there is a suspension for everyones taste. I have driven alot of nice cars at the track, if I am guily or have a short coming, its alot of the cars I've drifted through corners at the track, I have never gone to the store in, or just sat at a traffic light. So its the extreme opposite of most people. I wish I had the opportunity like Paul Hansen(Shirokuma)(Apex Japan) does, where all the cars he drives, are A.at a track, and B. some sweet crazy J-spec version of a car we wil never see here in the states !!! Alot of customers and students though, I should give credit to,..they listen, they ignore their friends in other cars, who are driving over their heads,..and they keep coming back and trying to get better, and thats really what I'm getting at here,....the fact that part of this "lets throw alot of money at my car habit" is what fuels the coilover revolution. Case in point. Had a student last year, 100% stock wrx, was driving 99% all day, and a couple of times, I clocked him for 3 laps,...he was within a tenth each lap,..he just kept doing the same "good" thing everytime. He said at the end of the day,.."should i change anything to the car?? ",...So his head was in the right place, and his driving was great,..that cant be said for alot of the high output cars, including a well known high output Subaru.............yeah,..so we all need to remember, its not what you have, its how well you drive it.


www.racecompengineering.com