[FT@SGP]

With all due respect I will disagree with the implied message, Myles

First a disclaimer: For those who do not know, Myles and I talk on the phone, exchange messages, respect one another's opinion and work, and also have business relations as well. So, he knows this in no manner an attack to him, but just a different point of view.

I have several issues with the "typical" train of thoughts, which I rather call them misconceptions (I think this will be long, please grab a cup of coffee if you are intended to make it to the end ):

#1 - If you are a good driver, you must also know a great deal about chassis dynamics.

A good driver does not necessarily make a good chassis tuner, and vice versa. I am one good example of that I think. I'd like to believe that I know one or two things on chassis tuning and have few tricks under my sleeves, but I would certainly not call myself a good driver. My biggest strength as a driver is that I get consistent in any given track pretty quickly, but I don't necessarily build very high speed, nor I record great lap times. I am a little too cautious and intimidated of that (some old memories from 17 years ago of a big crash that cost my co-driver's two legs to be broken permenantly are still with me and I have never been able to get over that). I don't have what it takes to be a race car driver, so I keep it within my own limits (most of the time ).

On the other hand, I had instructors at track and have more than few friends who are instructors, chief instructors, or intructor instructors, etc. And I know first-hand that majority does not understand chassis tuning. Recently, I had to create cheat-sheets for an experienced instructor on how to adjust his double-adjustable Koni shocks for various tracks and track conditions, but I am also one of his students . How many times have you heard your isntructor tell you that upgrading a stock front A/R bar to a thicker one will give you more understeer? They say this as almost like a golden rule without exceptions. Actually a front A/R upgrade will rarely give more understeer for showroom stock vehicles and equations are not linear, it is dependent on the car and chassis. I think we have already proven that for the STi.

If great drivers were great chassis tuners, Spoonface (M. Shumi) would be the most sought after chassis designer He apparently is one of the best communicators with his chassis engineers, but himself is not one.

#2- For someone to progress his driving, I heard it countless times, one should start with a stock configuration and become a good driver before attemting to change the suspension.

I truly am on the opposite side of this. I do not imply that if you are a rookie, you should totally modify your chassis; but I am saying that if you are a rookie that does not mean you cannot or should not modify the chassis.

As some of you experienced it already, when you start modifying your chassis components the vehicle's handling characteristics can and do change dramatically. The speed of weight transfer is significantly higher from corner to corner and body roll is less noticeable giving the driver lesser inputs and messages. Also, the driver will have to make corrections in a more rapid manner than if the car was in stock form, and the corrections have to be lesser in degree with greater smoothness; think go-karts that have no suspensions at all.

I have seen too many drivers who could not make the transition from stock to modified chassis setup, mainly because they are so used to the messages the chassis sends back and the time the softer sprung setup allows that with the modifications, things do get out of synchronization catching the driver off guard in many ways.

One classis example of this issue is trail braking. In trail braking the purpose is to keep the weight on the front until such point that the rear has moved around enough to create a straighter arc through the apex for more balanced and sometimes higher-speed corner exists. If one gets to learn this technique well in a stock car, then moves to a high-sprung coilover system and tries to do it the same way as previously, 9 out of 10 times they will sping the car. The weight transfer happens so quickly compared to stock configuration that the driver will not even notice the back-end of the car is already out of line until it is too late.

If you are a rookie and you do get your chassis modified, you get to start learning the basics with the modified setup that will require you to grasp higher driving techniques from the start. You don't have to go through re-learning from scratch after the modifications. And the vehicle characteristics can be so dramatically different that, one might have to re-learn litterally from scratch.

Also, when is a good time to start modifying the chassis? When we learn all there is to learn about a given vehicle, or when all driving techniques are executed perfectly from heel-toe to trail braking to mid-corner gear changes, etc; or when we all get to be instructors? There is no end to that. There will always be better and more experienced drivers. A driver one level up of us will always think we have a lot to learn and that we should not modify the chassis with the logic of the misconception # 2. Also, with that logic, one should not buy a high-performance car like the STi, M3, 911, or other unless we have had 10 years of solid driving experience, and while waiting for those 10 years, we should not be using traction control, corner brake balancing, yaw sensors, ABS or other aids.

That logic to me just does not make sense. I just do not see anything wrong with modifying the chassis from the start, of course provided that is the end objective, and it certainly may not be. learning the car as it has been modified and building on it the highly-demanding driving skills make a lot more sense to me.

Of course this does not mean, modify everything at once and going to the track Step-by-step modifications always work better as long as you know what to expect and be prepared with your driving abilities or weaknesses. As long as you are aware of your weaknesses, chassis modifications do nothing but help IMHO. And none of this either means that everyone should go with coilovers. Like Myles says, everything has an application and one should do any modification (chassis or engine) with specific purposes. But at the same time, it certainly does mean that we don't have to be race car drivers, instructors or even have track experience to appreciate sensible modifications. As most of us agree, there is always room for improvement in stock vehicles.

#3 - To be able to utilize adjustable shocks, you have to have a degree in rocket science.

You really do not Single adjustable shocks have become more and more common and how hard can it possibly be to figure out few combination of settings front and rear? Everyone has access to few good books in the market, they explain and give details and even few give cheat sheets. 30-min. reading and you are on your way That is how I really think. There is nothing more complicated IMHO. Things can get quite complicated once you start delving into double- or higher adjustable shocks, but I'd agree that most do not need those.

Things really do get complicated once you add other modifications to the equations, like adjustable control arms, lateral links, adjustable A/R bars, bushings, and other suspension geometry changing items. Then you should really consult someone, understand the modifications, and move slowly up the ladder.

I do agree with Myles from his originial thread-opener that it is very helpful to have the suspension and the chassis, in general, tuned once you have the tools to do it. Dialing in does give the last bit of performance from the components that are installed and I also agree that from that point on it is up to the driver to take advantage of them by properly altering the driving techniques to some degree.

Happy motoring all

[UberWagon]

Myles and FT,

These are great posts guys! I am eagerly awaiting round two!

-Nick

[944turboguy]

I can off the record say,that alot- most of the " i_______s" at the track are kinda clueless when it comes to thinking outside of the box. I do agree with FT,.that the whole "i______r" thing is and can be over- rated.

I came up starting with front wheel drive VW Golfs with 110hp, 2380lbs, 5 speed, yet,..Hawk blue pads, braided lines, Bilstein Rally-Race (BTS) suspension, Drake racing header,Schrick 276 cam,Recaro seats, and Safety devises cage. This was my back road attack (stupid ) car. I also drove it to and from work as a young service advisor for Honda. We would every Saturday night instead of meeting at the "lot" to drag race, we would meet at the Church parking lot out by Greenspring Valley Rd, not far from Falls Rd, in Maryland. We would set up a timed section of road that was the best tarmac one could find, with blind off camber corners, and small jumps, loose apex gravel corners, you name it, and as long as it was stupid, this orad had it. ( Ridge Rd ) We would communicate via walkie talkie, at the start and the finish. So we would race two cars through and play eliminator. ...blah-blah, blah, after years of getting away with this behavior, I was leaving an autocross early from which I was going to win, no matter what you brought or who showed up, and a guy named Barry Green said,...have you ever been to Friday at the track?...I said, who, what?..He tol dme he was an instructor at the track, come up some time. Well I had ben going to Summit Point since seeing the Factory
IMSA Audi's (Hans Stuck, and Hurley Haywood ) come there back in the late 80s' (showing my age )So I knew where the place was, and rememberedit vividly.

So a couple weeks later after I broke up with my girlfriend, I just got up, early one Friday morning and drove to Summit Point. (this was back when you could just "showup" and get a spot ) and I was put in group 1, and after learning the line in the morning, my instructors couldnt understand how I was doing so well, IF I hadnt been there before. The thing was this,..the "STUPID " things I did on the street were far more challenging that the open track with alot of runoff, plus there was someone in the car to show you some things and other big horsepower, cant carry any speed through the corners cars were there too ! I had a ball,....this time I was in a 88 Jetta 16v, with Audi 4 pistons calipers, and Yokohama 008 RS ll tires,. -2.2 degrees camber, 1 Recaro, and stock everything else, so there was no noise, no grunt, just ALOT of carrying speed through corners. I did this for 4 more years, and one day Matt ( now in Iraq ) head instructor, asked me if I had ever considered being an instructor, and I said ," well I still need some help myself,.."..he said, thats why I think you'd make a good instructor,..you dont think you know it all...."

So after 4 years of driving track events, with BSR, Mazda club, VW club, Audi Club, Mercedes Benz club, I had been "OFF" inmost of the corners at least once or twice,..cause if you dont try you wont make any mistakes,.I was always taught,........after all this time I was asked by the last person who I would have ever thought would ask me, to become an instructor. I had maybe driven 12 times a year, and attended most of the other events with the old school mentality that JON WINTER taught me,........................
"learn 3 things every time you go to the track,....."

So as an instructor I have seen alot of things at the track,.I have seen the typical more money than brains total 100k cars, with less than 300 miles on the odometer, I have seen women ( the best students ) really want to learn, and by the end of the day, able to pass their husbands, coming out of turn 10, I have seen Dave who used to work at OG Racing at Summit Point go from 3rd time at the track to instructor to winning his class in ITB, I have watched a fellow instructor die in Cobra that had brake failure in turn one,.........its all been great. My personal lap time has gone from a 1:38 first time to a low of 1:22 in someone elses racecar. Its been fun and now I have the greatest challenge, my 4 yeat old , wants to race go karts, and is already riding them and has a helmet, knows the "inside line" and knows who Senna was. ....

I was trained and helped by the best instructor,.Jon Winter. There arent many like him around anylonger. He is blindingly fast in anything and has a structured approach to the learning aspect to the fundamentals of driving dynamics. He has won races, and raced in Speedvision, Porsche Club, and is every year, invited by the Owner of Ferrari of Washington as a guest Pro-racer to help people learn their cars. HERE IS MY POINT....the one thing I learned from being around Jon for 10 years is,..everyone learns differently, some learn from doing,some learn from reading, and some dont learn !!....the key with chassis set-up and vehicle dynamics., is to be able to learn from situation to situation, this means you can get out of a truck into a shifter kart and go fast.

I say all this to say,.I cant speak for other instructors, most are good people, we dont always know the right answer, but we try to help,..we just want people to have fun and be safe.

944 turbo guy

[944turboguy]

I can off the record say,that alot- most of the " i_______s" at the track are kinda clueless when it comes to thinking outside of the box. I do agree with FT,.that the whole "i______r" thing is and can be over- rated.

I came up starting with front wheel drive VW Golfs with 110hp, 2380lbs, 5 speed, yet,..Hawk blue pads, braided lines, Bilstein Rally-Race (BTS) suspension, Drake racing header,Schrick 276 cam,Recaro seats, and Safety devises cage. This was my back road attack (stupid ) car. I also drove it to and from work as a young service advisor for Honda. We would every Saturday night instead of meeting at the "lot" to drag race, we would meet at the Church parking lot out by Greenspring Valley Rd, not far from Falls Rd, in Maryland. We would set up a timed section of road that was the best tarmac one could find, with blind off camber corners, and small jumps, loose apex gravel corners, you name it, and as long as it was stupid, this road had it. ( Ridge Rd ) We would communicate via walkie talkie, at the start and the finish. So we would race two cars through and play eliminator. ...blah-blah, blah, after years of getting away with this behavior, I was leaving an autocross early from which I was going to win, no matter what you brought or who showed up, and a guy named Barry Green said,...have you ever been to Friday at the track?...I said, who, what?..He tol dme he was an instructor at the track, come up some time. Well I had been going to Summit Point since seeing the Factory
IMSA Audi's (Hans Stuck, and Hurley Haywood ) race there back in the late 80s' (showing my age )So I knew where the place was, and remembered it vividly.

So a couple weeks later after I broke up with my girlfriend, I just got up, early one Friday morning and drove to Summit Point. (this was back when you could just "showup" and get a spot ) and I was put in group 1, and after learning the line in the morning, my instructors couldnt understand how I was doing so well, IF I hadnt been there before. The thing was this,..the "STUPID " things I did on the street were far more challenging than what I did on the open track with alot of runoff, plus there was someone in the car to show you some things and other big horsepower, cant carry any speed through the corners cars were there too ! I had a ball,....this time I was in a 88 Jetta 16v, with Audi 4 piston calipers, and Yokohama 008 RS ll tires,. -2.2 degrees camber, 1 Recaro, and stock everything else, so there was no noise, no grunt, just ALOT of carrying speed through corners. I did this for 4 more years, and one day Matt ( now in Iraq ) head instructor, asked me if I had ever considered being an instructor, and I said ," well I still need some help myself,.."..he said, thats why I think you'd make a good instructor,..you dont think you know it all...."

So after 4 years of driving track events, with BSR, Mazda club, VW club, Audi Club, Mercedes Benz club, I had been "OFF" inmost of the corners at least once or twice,..cause if you dont try you wont make any mistakes,.I was always taught,........after all this time I was asked by the last person who I would have ever thought would ask me, to become an instructor. I had maybe driven 12 times a year, and attended most of the other events with the old school mentality that JON WINTER taught me,........................
"learn 3 things every time you go to the track,....."

So as an instructor I have seen alot of things at the track,.I have seen the typical more money than brains total 100k cars, with less than 300 miles on the odometer, I have seen women ( the best students ) really want to learn, and by the end of the day, able to pass their husbands, coming out of turn 10, I have seen Dave who used to work at OG Racing at Summit Point go from 3rd time at the track to instructor to winning his class in ITB, I have watched a fellow instructor die in a Cobra that had brake failure in turn one,..some good some bad, for the most part.......its all been great. My personal lap time has gone from a 1:38 first time to a low of 1:22 in someone elses racecar. Its been fun and now I have the greatest challenge, my 4 yeat old , wants to race go karts, and is already riding them and has a helmet, knows the "inside line" and knows who Senna was. ....

I was trained and helped by the best instructor,.Jon Winter. There arent many like him around anylonger. He is blindingly fast in anything and has a structured approach to the learning aspect to the fundamentals of driving dynamics. He has won races, and raced in Speedvision, Porsche Club, and is every year, invited by the Owner of Ferrari of Washington as a guest Pro-racer to help people learn their cars. HERE IS MY POINT....the one thing I learned from being around Jon for 10 years is,..everyone learns differently, some learn from doing,some learn from reading, and some dont learn !!....the key with chassis set-up and vehicle dynamics., is to be able to learn from situation to situation, this means you can get out of a truck into a shifter kart and go fast.

I say all this to say,.I cant speak for other instructors, most are good people, we dont always know the right answer, but we try to help,..we just want people to have fun and be safe.

944 turbo guy

[944turboguy]

Ft,.it was almost as long as your small post...........lol

But I think you see what my point is....

[FT@SGP]

LOL, very good one nonetheless

I do agree with all you points without contest. My overall stand is that great driver does not necessarily equal great chassis tuner. This is especially true for students. I had too many instructors who kept telling me that I should not modify the chassis or engine before I learn to drive. They all had the best intentions, but most did not understand chassis. Frankly, chassis tuning is such a dark hole in many ways that I don't understand many things about it, or cannot cure all of possible problems.

The reason is everyone has a different driving style green or experienced

[944turboguy]

yeah,,..I think in the end were saying the same thing,
I'm just going about the long way to say it,...my wife complains about this too !! :wink:

[stott]

Just got it cornerweighted and aligned. Here are the specs.

Front
-3.5 degrees
1/16" toe out

Rear
-2.5 degrees
1/8" toe in

50.2
49.8

lf:1017 rf: 1010

lr:765 rr:740

250lb driver.

3532 total weight

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http://www.stifiles.com

stott

[944turboguy]

those are good numbers for an sTI, did you move any parts around...

[QuickSilverSTi]

So, in short, how is corner balancing accomplished? What does the shop do?

[FT@SGP]

Corner weighing explained:

http://www.grmotorsports.com/cornerweight.html

[QuickSilverSTi]

Much less confusing than that scientology mumbo-jumbo

[srf]

Why doesn't the aftermarket make some threaded sleeves so you can install them on affordable shocks/struts? A similar item exists for the Mustang.

[FT@SGP]

Originally Posted by srf

Why doesn't the aftermarket make some threaded sleeves so you can install them on affordable shocks/struts? A similar item exists for the Mustang.

Most race shops can make custom sleeves, it is not that difficult with the right tools. You can try www.KearneyRacing.com, they are extremely talented in this type of thing.

[stott]

Nothing moved around. I am running an FMIC and headers so that is a decent amount of weight change from stock. That is it though. From looking at what did show up I am thinking a battery relocation may be somewhere in my future. maybe some general weight reduction also.

---------------------
http://www.stifiles.com

stott