which coilover is better? - and why stiffer isn't necessarily better - Page 2

Mykl · 06-19-2006, 06:49 AM

Does anybody think that even the off the shelf spring rates of the KW's might be too stiff for even high performance street tires? The Teins and Cuscos are even stiffer, right?

If the car will never have race tires installed and you don't plan on taking it to the track perhaps you should consider a set of Whiteline G4's.

**Z1 Performance** · 06-19-2006, 06:53 AM

Spring rates do not operate in a vacuum - they are totally dependant on the type of damper being used. In other words, you cannot compare the spring rates of a Cusco vs a Tein vs a KW, as all use a totally different damper.

All of the companies also offer alternate rates that can be ordered to tailor the handling/balance to the users liking, but IMHO, you are always first best off going with their default rates, setting the car up and playing with various combinations of preload and dampening before swapping to different springs.

Mykl · 06-19-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance

Spring rates do not operate in a vacuum - they are totally dependant on the type of damper being used. In other words, you cannot compare the spring rates of a Cusco vs a Tein vs a KW, as all use a totally different damper.

I don't understand what you're saying. A stiff spring is a stiff spring, no matter how it's damped. If your tires don't have enough grip to compress the spring in the first place, then how it's damped doesn't seem to be very important.

wt421 · 06-19-2006, 06:59 AM

How about Cusco zero 2 r?

**Z1 Performance** · 06-19-2006, 01:53 PM

Zero2R's are good choice - going to be stiffer feeling (as they are an inverted monotube) compared to the others though

**evilSTi7** · 06-19-2006, 02:01 PM

ot but, are the cusco zero2e's inverted too?

**Z1 Performance** · 06-19-2006, 02:05 PM

only the Zero 2R are inverted monotubes

91TB78 · 06-19-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykl

I don't understand what you're saying. A stiff spring is a stiff spring, no matter how it's damped. If your tires don't have enough grip to compress the spring in the first place, then how it's damped doesn't seem to be very important.

Correct, but spring rates behave differently based on the damping that the shock is doing. What I'm saying and what I believe Z1 is trying to say is that even 10K rate springs with underdamped shocks will be less firm than 6K rate springs with much higher damping. The dampning and spring rates are dependent on each other for overall coilover performance and one shouldn't purchase coilovers solely on the spring rates.

To the OPs question...I'm waiting on a set of revised KW V3s. I'm a firm believer that properly damped coilovers perform just as good, if not better, than highly sprung coilovers. Additionally, since the car is my DD, I want something compliant enough not to jar me. Lastly, a lot of JDM coilovers have horrible droop, something the KW seems to do well in and since I AutoX, I'm not really interested in the possibility of dog-legging it around a course.

wt421 · 06-20-2006, 05:34 AM

Z1,do your hear any zero 2r have clunking noise?

Mykl · 06-20-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91TB78

Correct, but spring rates behave differently based on the damping that the shock is doing. What I'm saying and what I believe Z1 is trying to say is that even 10K rate springs with underdamped shocks will be less firm than 6K rate springs with much higher damping. The dampning and spring rates are dependent on each other for overall coilover performance and one shouldn't purchase coilovers solely on the spring rates.

I totally understand, I was just asking the question... how stiff is too stiff for street tires? What's optimal?

You wouldn't want to run a 10k spring rate with underdamped shocks just because your tires aren't sticky enough. Just like you wouldn't want to run a 6k spring with higher valving. Neither is best if you can avoid it.

91TB78 · 06-20-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykl

... how stiff is too stiff for street tires? What's optimal?

I don't know. I think the answer is "it depends."

AutoX is very violent turns compared to road racing or track days, so higher spring rates work well even on ultra hp street tires. Ben is using Tein SS-P, which are much softer very successfully at the track, for comparison sake.

A good balance is always what I look for. Too stiff and I believe that you can bounce all over the surface if it is a bumpy surface.

**GTWORX.com** · 06-20-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91TB78

I don't know. I think the answer is "it depends."

AutoX is very violent turns compared to road racing or track days, so higher spring rates work well even on ultra hp street tires. Ben is using Tein SS-P, which are much softer very successfully at the track, for comparison sake.

A good balance is always what I look for. Too stiff and I believe that you can bounce all over the surface if it is a bumpy surface.

Correct. It depends is always the right answer

To put it simply, with extra wide and extra sticky tires, you're going to have a lot of extra grip....and therefore a lot of extra roll. Rather then slide around as it would on street tires, the car will just roll and grip. Thats why you need stiffer rates....to minimize the roll you're extra tire is causing and maximize contact patch to get even more grip out of the car. Among other things, balance being one of them.

A sliding car has too much roll stiffness and a rolling car doesn't have enough. Something like that.

And of course, too stiff and you're bouncing all over the track is never good....

- Andrew

**Z1 Performance** · 06-20-2006, 12:09 PM

91TB78 has it right on the money

stiff springs aint the answer the proper handling - a spring rate that matches a damper rate well are (along with a host of other upgrades)

How stiff is too stiff...that is the eternal question

It depends is really the right answer.

To hone in on "the best setup for my needs", you need to start paying attention to everything. Case in point (and this is purely annecdotal, but you'll see what I mean). I have a 350Z - tons of suspension stuff (actually everything you can do, is done). I had originally run T1S's for the street - why, because they have a nice soft sidewall and offered all the realistic levels of grip I could ask for on the street. For track days, I experimented a bit and ran RA1's that worked well for me. I played around with preload, sway settings, camber, etc., and had it dialed in all very nicely.

When my T1S's had reached the end of their days, I got greedy, and decided to go for a tire that had widely been written up as "excellent", with essentially nothing short of rave reviews - the S03. I figured the extra grip they offered couldn't hurt me right? Well, I absolutely cannot stand them, and I cannot wait till they are worn so they can be replaced. Why? Simply put, what made the Toyo so nice on the street (soft sidewall) is exactly the feature that the S03's don't have. Their sidewall is super stiff. All the time I spent getting my setting dialed in for street and track were gone, and I had to start over from scratch. I've now gotten it to an acceptable level, but I yearn for the sidewall of the Toyo, as they were alot nicer to drive around on the rough roads we have here in NY.

Another good example is a local customer with an Evo. He had an Evo 8 that had Zeal V6's (12k 10k springs as I recall) and recently traded to an Evo 9. This time around he wanted something with in car dampening control so he went to the Tanabe Sustec 7 with the TEAS controller. Last night he stopped by and asked me to drive the car, and see "how it felt compared to his old car". I drove it, and commented it felt alot softer than before - not better dampened mind you, just softer. He agreed and had been feeling the same thing. The spring rates on these are exactly the same as his Zeals...and so are his tires. So what accounts for such a significant difference? Simple - totally different dampers. That's what I meant when I said they don't operate in a vacuum - the damper and spring is totally dependant on one another, and the only truly meaningful comparison, in my personal opinion, is how "X" damper behaved with spring rate "A" vs spring rate "B". Anything else becomes largely apples to oranges.

As for the 2R's making noise, they should be quite quiet on most roads; on low speed bumps they are quite a bit stiffer than stock, though not oppressive on the roads we have here (assuming you pick the right tire!)

stretch · 06-20-2006, 12:17 PM

I think the, "How stiff is too stiff?" question is much easier to answer: if you find yourself skipping over broken pavement, your suspension is too stiff for the road you are on. The object of a suspension is to keep your tire on the road at all times, and any time it is not doing so will result in a loss of grip. This limit, of course, varies depending on what road you are on. :P

Just remember that stiffness is determined much more by your dampers than springs. Good dampers should be your highest priority because they will keep the car smooth over the rough stuff while still giving you great car control. Poorly valved coilovers may do well at the track or the street, but never both. Well valved coilovers generally feel much more comfortable on the street for a similar level of car control.

Mykl · 06-20-2006, 12:26 PM

Learn something new every day. Thanks guys.

06-19-2006, 06:49 AM	#16
Mykl S204 Racer Car: '04.5 STi Fav Mod: ZZYZX Location: Montgomery, Al Posts: 2,749 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	Does anybody think that even the off the shelf spring rates of the KW's might be too stiff for even high performance street tires? The Teins and Cuscos are even stiffer, right? If the car will never have race tires installed and you don't plan on taking it to the track perhaps you should consider a set of Whiteline G4's. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

06-20-2006, 12:26 PM	#30
Mykl S204 Racer Car: '04.5 STi Fav Mod: ZZYZX Location: Montgomery, Al Posts: 2,749 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	Learn something new every day. Thanks guys. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.

06-19-2006, 06:53 AM	#17
Z1 Performance Authorized Vendor Location: St James, NY Posts: 1,720 Join Date: Sep 2005 Trader Rating: (43)	Spring rates do not operate in a vacuum - they are totally dependant on the type of damper being used. In other words, you cannot compare the spring rates of a Cusco vs a Tein vs a KW, as all use a totally different damper. All of the companies also offer alternate rates that can be ordered to tailor the handling/balance to the users liking, but IMHO, you are always first best off going with their default rates, setting the car up and playing with various combinations of preload and dampening before swapping to different springs.

06-19-2006, 06:59 AM	#19
wt421 Lurker Posts: 7 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	How about Cusco zero 2 r?

06-19-2006, 01:53 PM	#20
Z1 Performance Authorized Vendor Location: St James, NY Posts: 1,720 Join Date: Sep 2005 Trader Rating: (43)	Zero2R's are good choice - going to be stiffer feeling (as they are an inverted monotube) compared to the others though

06-19-2006, 02:01 PM	#21
evilSTi7 The Hoff Fan Club, member #001 Car: 05 WRB/Gold Fav Mod: Hood Scoop Homer Location: Where ever The Hoff is! Posts: 10,192 Join Date: Jul 2004 Trader Rating: (4)	ot but, are the cusco zero2e's inverted too?

06-19-2006, 02:05 PM	#22
Z1 Performance Authorized Vendor Location: St James, NY Posts: 1,720 Join Date: Sep 2005 Trader Rating: (43)	only the Zero 2R are inverted monotubes

06-20-2006, 05:34 AM	#24
wt421 Lurker Posts: 7 Join Date: Apr 2006 Trader Rating: (0)	Z1,do your hear any zero 2r have clunking noise?

06-20-2006, 12:09 PM	#28
Z1 Performance Authorized Vendor Location: St James, NY Posts: 1,720 Join Date: Sep 2005 Trader Rating: (43)	91TB78 has it right on the money stiff springs aint the answer the proper handling - a spring rate that matches a damper rate well are (along with a host of other upgrades) How stiff is too stiff...that is the eternal question It depends is really the right answer. To hone in on "the best setup for my needs", you need to start paying attention to everything. Case in point (and this is purely annecdotal, but you'll see what I mean). I have a 350Z - tons of suspension stuff (actually everything you can do, is done). I had originally run T1S's for the street - why, because they have a nice soft sidewall and offered all the realistic levels of grip I could ask for on the street. For track days, I experimented a bit and ran RA1's that worked well for me. I played around with preload, sway settings, camber, etc., and had it dialed in all very nicely. When my T1S's had reached the end of their days, I got greedy, and decided to go for a tire that had widely been written up as "excellent", with essentially nothing short of rave reviews - the S03. I figured the extra grip they offered couldn't hurt me right? Well, I absolutely cannot stand them, and I cannot wait till they are worn so they can be replaced. Why? Simply put, what made the Toyo so nice on the street (soft sidewall) is exactly the feature that the S03's don't have. Their sidewall is super stiff. All the time I spent getting my setting dialed in for street and track were gone, and I had to start over from scratch. I've now gotten it to an acceptable level, but I yearn for the sidewall of the Toyo, as they were alot nicer to drive around on the rough roads we have here in NY. Another good example is a local customer with an Evo. He had an Evo 8 that had Zeal V6's (12k 10k springs as I recall) and recently traded to an Evo 9. This time around he wanted something with in car dampening control so he went to the Tanabe Sustec 7 with the TEAS controller. Last night he stopped by and asked me to drive the car, and see "how it felt compared to his old car". I drove it, and commented it felt alot softer than before - not better dampened mind you, just softer. He agreed and had been feeling the same thing. The spring rates on these are exactly the same as his Zeals...and so are his tires. So what accounts for such a significant difference? Simple - totally different dampers. That's what I meant when I said they don't operate in a vacuum - the damper and spring is totally dependant on one another, and the only truly meaningful comparison, in my personal opinion, is how "X" damper behaved with spring rate "A" vs spring rate "B". Anything else becomes largely apples to oranges. As for the 2R's making noise, they should be quite quiet on most roads; on low speed bumps they are quite a bit stiffer than stock, though not oppressive on the roads we have here (assuming you pick the right tire!)

06-20-2006, 12:17 PM	#29
stretch Silver Member Car: Aspen 2005 STi Fav Mod: TurnInConcepts.com Coilovers Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 1,771 Join Date: Mar 2006 Trader Rating: (2)	I think the, "How stiff is too stiff?" question is much easier to answer: if you find yourself skipping over broken pavement, your suspension is too stiff for the road you are on. The object of a suspension is to keep your tire on the road at all times, and any time it is not doing so will result in a loss of grip. This limit, of course, varies depending on what road you are on. :P Just remember that stiffness is determined much more by your dampers than springs. Good dampers should be your highest priority because they will keep the car smooth over the rough stuff while still giving you great car control. Poorly valved coilovers may do well at the track or the street, but never both. Well valved coilovers generally feel much more comfortable on the street for a similar level of car control.