Cure the STi's handling woes...

trackstar · 11-23-2003, 04:12 PM

OK, we all know mast car rags say the Evo has better track handling. It seems the STi's woes (according to what I've read) are persistent understeer and poor steering feel.

How can this be corrected? I'm guessing some springs and a stiffer rear roll bar would help the understeer. Anything else?

As far as steering, I have no idea...

I've read about trailing arms and lateral braces and such... I mean, I know with unlimited funds we could totally redo the suspension. What I'm looking for is the simplest, least expensive way to properly sort the car out, to make it neutral and flat.

olappa · 11-23-2003, 05:14 PM

the STi pinks. i cant beleive SOA ever sold this car without it. this really hurt their reputation. enough said.

olappa · 11-23-2003, 05:15 PM

strut bars also helped too.

***staticx313*** · 11-23-2003, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olappa

strut bars also helped too.

ya and lowering (edit:lol just realized you said STi pinks up there now) it would make a big difference... but I think most magazines just turned on the car adn drove it (which is why I dont think the handling statement is valid...) the sti can have oversteer, neutral steer, and understeer depending on how you have the DCCD set. Someone said that 1 position from lock will give you the most neutral steering and that full rear will make the end swing out (more oversteer) so i think theres more to it then just driving, as it has a "tunable" differential setup vs the 50/50 all the time evo's.

Robert~

olappa · 11-24-2003, 07:22 AM

also, better weight distribution should help by taking weight off the front end. i took out the AC already, and am installing the lightweight bumperbeam tomorrow. Ill be relocating the battery in the trunk the next week or so, along with adding the 6 piece lateral link/trailing arm kit. ill keep you guys posted.

FT@SGP · 11-24-2003, 08:01 AM

I'll include my opinion here for what ever its worth:

The handling differences between the Evo 8 and STi are very small, meaning the driver will make a more significant difference.

However, I would agree that out of the box the Evo 8 does handle better. There are three basic reasons: 1- anti-roll bars both front and rear are stiffer on the Evo, 2- Evo has strut bar in the front and the STi does not, and 3- the Evo has 8" wide rims with 235 tires. If you make those three changes, the STi will handle as well as the Evo. Obviously, for autoxers it is not that easy

due to stock classification rules. But I can tell you, the STi has one up on the Evo as well: its suspension geometry is more efficient. To get the same results, you have to use much higher spring rates on the Evo than on the STi

I would not agree that the STi has "persistent understeer". In my opinion, it actually has little understeer. The driving technique is very important with the Evo and STi due to their 4WD nature and the DCCD in the STi. All cars will understeer if you going into a corner too hot. The weakest point in the STi for autoxes is its rim width and tires; for track add the brake pads to the list as I have said several times before.

I also do not agree with the reviews that identify the STi having poor "steering feel", at least not totally. It is quite different for sure, it has some play in it as well, and we can also classify it a little twitchy; but the feedback you get from the steering, especially during autoxes and track events, is awesome. I truly come to appreciate the steering and I don't know how I was doing without this much feedback. The Evo certainly has a quicker ratio, but that is a double-edge sword; autoxers certainly love it.

So, how do you really make the STi handle better? There is no one single answer, but some common procedures can be applied. The way to determine it is to figure out "better handling" for what purpose? Is it for street, auto-x, track, or a combination of all of the above. The answer changes depending on any of the identified purposes. If you can say, I want "better handling for xxx purposes and I feel the STi's biggest shortcomings for my driving style are...", then I can give more specific answers

One thing I would not recommend is just changing springs. I have never seen that work properly with the exception of visual apparence. But that is just my opinion.

olappa · 11-24-2003, 08:36 AM

Quote:

One thing I would not recommend is just changing springs.

Maybe so....but the springs we are referring to here are STi springs mated specifically (and perfectly) to this chassis. You may be correct about some aftermarket springs/coilovers, but this car, when coupled with the "pinks," absolutely rocks. You obviously have not tried the STi in its intended setup. You will be quite surprised. :wink:

FT@SGP · 11-24-2003, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olappa

Quote:

One thing I would not recommend is just changing springs.

Maybe so....but the springs we are referring to here are STi springs mated specifically (and perfectly) to this chassis. You may be correct about some aftermarket springs/coilovers, but this car, when coupled with the "pinks," absolutely rocks. You obviously have not tried the STi in its intended setup. You will be quite surprised. :wink:

No, I have not tried it with the pink springs, you are right. But, again, how good they are depend on the purpose. What are the spring rates of the pinks, and how would they differ if you were to get same/similar springs from an other source?

olappa · 11-24-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

What are the spring rates of the pinks, and how would they differ if you were to get same/similar springs from an other source?

I dont know the technical specifications - thats for the pros like yourselves to sort out

from my experience, theyre stiffer and return all sorts of feedback from the road, and have much less bodyroll.

As you may have read in some posts, some people may be upset with the harder ride, but thats because they have the wrong expectations. (make sure your coffee cup has a tight lid :wink: ) This is a performance car, not a luxury car, and i dont mind it at all.

What im trying to say is that the Pinks get the job done for sure - point a to point b much quicker now.

Ive never driven one, but im sure a ferrari is even harsher.

FT@SGP · 11-24-2003, 10:47 AM

I agree with you to a point. The shocks are valved to a range of spring rates, and if you are within that range, you are alright; you might get a little more wear on the shocks but not noticeable.

Let's say that the Pinks are about 10-15% stiffer. For the money (which I do not know their cost) and street driving that may be all you need; and I would not dispute it. All that counts is your personal view when it comes to chassis setup.

However, I know for one thing, if you will regularly auto-x and do track events; 10-15% more stiffness will not get you much. For that reason, I always answer the spring/coilover setup questions with general terms. At the end, you will be driving the vehicle and you need to be happy with it.

Also, IMHO, the harshness in the stock STi is partially due to too agressive shock valving in relation to the springs put on. It somewhat indicates that the shocks were designed for another spring set, and that may be the "Pinks" actually.

However, my opinion is that if you really want to get the most out of the STi, or compete with the Evos, then I doubt a spring setup that is 10-15% stiffer alone will do.

bitabur · 11-24-2003, 02:09 PM

Just a nitpick, stiffer springs will wear your shock valves less, because there will be less travel in your shocks....

norcal-sti · 11-24-2003, 03:53 PM

FT, couldn't agree w/ you more. driven w/ proper technique, you can pretty much do away with any understeer, or if you go in way too hot and apply throttle too soon, you'll push the front end into the next state. same thing goes for just about any car out there. you just gotta learn how to drive the car properly. same goes for your comments about springs, etc. there is no one "right" set up, it depends a great deal on the application. but those pinks sure make the car look right!

FT@SGP · 11-24-2003, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitabur

Just a nitpick, stiffer springs will wear your shock valves less, because there will be less travel in your shocks....

That is quite true, I stand corrected; I was thinking the reverse with too low of spring rates. With harder spring rates, spring oscillation is less making the shocks work less to gradually reduce the oscillation; however, as you move out of the spring rate ranges, the shocks cannot even react to the lesser oscilation and the car becomes bouncy, and less and less controllable. Furthermore, it becomes impossible to keep the tires in contact with the road. I know, I am prolonging your simple comment but I just want to clarify why spring/shock combination is important to match properly

Quote:

Originally Posted by norcal-sti

FT, couldn't agree w/ you more. driven w/ proper technique, you can pretty much do away with any understeer, or if you go in way too hot and apply throttle too soon, you'll push the front end into the next state. same thing goes for just about any car out there. you just gotta learn how to drive the car properly. same goes for your comments about springs, etc. there is no one "right" set up, it depends a great deal on the application. but those pinks sure make the car look right!

Thank you Norcal-sti. With the fear of sounding like an advertisement -- We really try very hard to differentiate ourselves from general parts' pushers. Few of our ground rules are: 1- there is no one right setup and 2- The driver is always right

We try to customize our offerings to the driver and vehicle. One thing we know: chassis setup is a very personal matter to the driver, and only his/her opinion counts when it comes to "good handling" and what is right or wrong. We are not quite there yet in terms of fully customized and phases chassis improvement solutions, but we are trying as rapidly as we can. Testing takes a lot of time and money for sure.

crashsti · 11-25-2003, 06:52 AM

in most cases there are professionals who deal in nothing but suspensions that can give you the information you seek based on the information you give them. i can't imagine using stiffer springs since i do lots of driving on less than ideal surfaces. i have actually been considering looking into springs that might do better in the dirt. but as is, i am very happy with the STI. i think to say that the STi has poor handling is way off base. compared to the new EVO it has been called a close second. i really don't think there's a need to CURE anything in this case. its all about what type of driving you do. in my opinion SOA did a good job creating a good all around ride. i'm happy.

olappa · 11-26-2003, 01:45 PM

Well.... theyre done! Sti hardened strut mounts and Lightweight Bumper beam are in!

first, the STi hardened strut mounts. Very nice! they have improved the feel of the"pinks" even more so, making everything in that department even more precise and responsive. Driving over small bumps especially is nicer now and they have actually been smoothed out and shake the cabin and chassis less than before. I think this due to the harder mounts causing the suspension to work more by isolating them more (or something like that). things down there are much less "vague," and it has also improved steering input and the cars responsiveness to directional changes quite a bit also.

Next: Bumper beam. You have no idea how big the OEM BB is till you see it next to the JDM BB. Wow. At least 2.5x lighter. i guess 25 lbs easy. This is a substantial weight loss, especially considering the fact that that it is removed from the extreme front end of the car. This has changed the physics of turn in and direction change drastically. very nimble left-to-right movement now.

Definitely recommended Mods.

11-23-2003, 04:12 PM	#1
trackstar Amateur STI Driver Posts: 10 Join Date: Nov 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	OK, we all know mast car rags say the Evo has better track handling. It seems the STi's woes (according to what I've read) are persistent understeer and poor steering feel. How can this be corrected? I'm guessing some springs and a stiffer rear roll bar would help the understeer. Anything else? As far as steering, I have no idea... I've read about trailing arms and lateral braces and such... I mean, I know with unlimited funds we could totally redo the suspension. What I'm looking for is the simplest, least expensive way to properly sort the car out, to make it neutral and flat. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad. Last edited by Nivek : 04-02-2005 at 12:48 AM.

11-23-2003, 05:15 PM	#3
olappa STI Driver Posts: 286 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Ultimate STi/EVO Website and Parts Store. strut bars also helped too.

11-24-2003, 07:22 AM	#5
olappa STI Driver Posts: 286 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Maniac Tiburon Driver in Big Bear, CA also, better weight distribution should help by taking weight off the front end. i took out the AC already, and am installing the lightweight bumperbeam tomorrow. Ill be relocating the battery in the trunk the next week or so, along with adding the 6 piece lateral link/trailing arm kit. ill keep you guys posted.

11-24-2003, 10:47 AM	#10
FT@SGP Spec C Club Location: Become a sponsoring vendor Posts: 1,038 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Re: READ it... it says STI I agree with you to a point. The shocks are valved to a range of spring rates, and if you are within that range, you are alright; you might get a little more wear on the shocks but not noticeable. Let's say that the Pinks are about 10-15% stiffer. For the money (which I do not know their cost) and street driving that may be all you need; and I would not dispute it. All that counts is your personal view when it comes to chassis setup. However, I know for one thing, if you will regularly auto-x and do track events; 10-15% more stiffness will not get you much. For that reason, I always answer the spring/coilover setup questions with general terms. At the end, you will be driving the vehicle and you need to be happy with it. Also, IMHO, the harshness in the stock STi is partially due to too agressive shock valving in relation to the springs put on. It somewhat indicates that the shocks were designed for another spring set, and that may be the "Pinks" actually. However, my opinion is that if you really want to get the most out of the STi, or compete with the Evos, then I doubt a spring setup that is 10-15% stiffer alone will do.

11-24-2003, 03:53 PM	#12
norcal-sti Senior STI Driver Car: '04 wrb sti Fav Mod: hhmmmmm... Location: san rafael, ca Posts: 348 Join Date: Sep 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Water in oil catch can????? FT, couldn't agree w/ you more. driven w/ proper technique, you can pretty much do away with any understeer, or if you go in way too hot and apply throttle too soon, you'll push the front end into the next state. same thing goes for just about any car out there. you just gotta learn how to drive the car properly. same goes for your comments about springs, etc. there is no one "right" set up, it depends a great deal on the application. but those pinks sure make the car look right!

11-23-2003, 05:14 PM	#2
olappa STI Driver Posts: 286 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	the STi pinks. i cant beleive SOA ever sold this car without it. this really hurt their reputation. enough said.

11-24-2003, 08:01 AM	#6
FT@SGP Spec C Club Location: Become a sponsoring vendor Posts: 1,038 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	I'll include my opinion here for what ever its worth: The handling differences between the Evo 8 and STi are very small, meaning the driver will make a more significant difference. However, I would agree that out of the box the Evo 8 does handle better. There are three basic reasons: 1- anti-roll bars both front and rear are stiffer on the Evo, 2- Evo has strut bar in the front and the STi does not, and 3- the Evo has 8" wide rims with 235 tires. If you make those three changes, the STi will handle as well as the Evo. Obviously, for autoxers it is not that easy due to stock classification rules. But I can tell you, the STi has one up on the Evo as well: its suspension geometry is more efficient. To get the same results, you have to use much higher spring rates on the Evo than on the STi I would not agree that the STi has "persistent understeer". In my opinion, it actually has little understeer. The driving technique is very important with the Evo and STi due to their 4WD nature and the DCCD in the STi. All cars will understeer if you going into a corner too hot. The weakest point in the STi for autoxes is its rim width and tires; for track add the brake pads to the list as I have said several times before. I also do not agree with the reviews that identify the STi having poor "steering feel", at least not totally. It is quite different for sure, it has some play in it as well, and we can also classify it a little twitchy; but the feedback you get from the steering, especially during autoxes and track events, is awesome. I truly come to appreciate the steering and I don't know how I was doing without this much feedback. The Evo certainly has a quicker ratio, but that is a double-edge sword; autoxers certainly love it. So, how do you really make the STi handle better? There is no one single answer, but some common procedures can be applied. The way to determine it is to figure out "better handling" for what purpose? Is it for street, auto-x, track, or a combination of all of the above. The answer changes depending on any of the identified purposes. If you can say, I want "better handling for xxx purposes and I feel the STi's biggest shortcomings for my driving style are...", then I can give more specific answers One thing I would not recommend is just changing springs. I have never seen that work properly with the exception of visual apparence. But that is just my opinion.

11-24-2003, 02:09 PM	#11
bitabur Spec C Club Car: Motorcycles Fav Mod: Student Location: Western Washington Posts: 1,929 Join Date: Oct 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Just a nitpick, stiffer springs will wear your shock valves less, because there will be less travel in your shocks....

11-25-2003, 06:52 AM	#14
crashsti Spec C Club Fav Mod: stockboy Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,629 Join Date: Sep 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	in most cases there are professionals who deal in nothing but suspensions that can give you the information you seek based on the information you give them. i can't imagine using stiffer springs since i do lots of driving on less than ideal surfaces. i have actually been considering looking into springs that might do better in the dirt. but as is, i am very happy with the STI. i think to say that the STi has poor handling is way off base. compared to the new EVO it has been called a close second. i really don't think there's a need to CURE anything in this case. its all about what type of driving you do. in my opinion SOA did a good job creating a good all around ride. i'm happy.

11-26-2003, 01:45 PM	#15
olappa STI Driver Posts: 286 Join Date: Jun 2003 Trader Rating: (0)	Well.... theyre done! Sti hardened strut mounts and Lightweight Bumper beam are in! first, the STi hardened strut mounts. Very nice! they have improved the feel of the"pinks" even more so, making everything in that department even more precise and responsive. Driving over small bumps especially is nicer now and they have actually been smoothed out and shake the cabin and chassis less than before. I think this due to the harder mounts causing the suspension to work more by isolating them more (or something like that). things down there are much less "vague," and it has also improved steering input and the cars responsiveness to directional changes quite a bit also. Next: Bumper beam. You have no idea how big the OEM BB is till you see it next to the JDM BB. Wow. At least 2.5x lighter. i guess 25 lbs easy. This is a substantial weight loss, especially considering the fact that that it is removed from the extreme front end of the car. This has changed the physics of turn in and direction change drastically. very nimble left-to-right movement now. Definitely recommended Mods. This ad is not endorsed by this member. Please register or login to hide this ad.