[Turninconcepts.com]

As some of you know we are very keen on testing for ourselves the parts that we sell. This is so that we can intellegently answer questions on the parts and can address any issues that may crop up for our customers.

RCE does the same thing. In fact, Myles asked us to check them out as he knows we try to give honest, no-holds-barred opinions on parts, and didn't want to give any blinded-by-my-own-parts-coolness bias.

While our attitude on looking at parts may make us unpopular in the eyes of some potential customers, especially when we tell folks they wasted their hard earned money on parts they have already purchased, it is something we will continue to do. If feelings get hurt along the way we apologize, but we call it like we see it.

Last Thursday we received a set (front and rear) of the new RCE anti-roll bars. I had promised they would be on a car within 24 hours for me to test. That we did, and I have been driving that car ever since while giving Myles a few updates along the way.

As for timing on the review he has no idea this is going up right now, and at no time has he asked me for a preview of what's coming. This is so that he can in no way bias what I am about to say.

To give an idea of the car -
All the TiC parts
A good bit of the Kartboy parts
Ohlins sportlines with the stock Ohlins spring rates
6Gun Racing kit
Set up at Stage 2 (because that's all we need for what we do with the car)
Falken 912 all season tires
Alignment sucks, and I really need to find some time to correct that


Below are some of my initial thoughts.

Packaging -

Top notch. Very nice double wall boxes that should be able to withstand just about anything that the grunts at any shipping can come up with. I even have a pic of Mike from RCE standing atop one of the boxes (in flip-flops nonetheless).

The bars -

They are beefy. REALLY BEEFY. Huge really. The powdercoat looks good, and provided the adhesion is good they should stay looking good for a long while. Only time will tell on that, but I'll report back what I find over time.

The front bar -
This one has two adjustment holes. Soft and hard. Soft equates out to 25.5, and hard to 28.5. We opted to go with the hard setting as what came off the car was the WL big bar on the stiff setting.

Front bar fitment -
Fitment is good, but with the 6Gun kit is very close to the tie rods. Despite the closeness I have not experienced any knocking or contact. Frankly, if it can clear with this kit fitted on the car then it should have no problems whatsoever fitting a stock setup or a setup with the Whiteline roll center kit.

Front bar feel -
Feels very much like the bar it replaced. I will say that my traction up front is severely limited by the tires on the car. Given the nature of those a better setting would be the softer setup, but once you get a good set of sticky tires on there this selling will be good.

With that said I still stand by my bar recommendation that this setting is more for autoX, and that a street or street driven car doing roadrace would benefit more from the softer setting.

Rear bar -
This is also a 25.5mm bar with 3 adjustments. The SOFT setting is at 25.5mm. Sorry Myles, I don't remember the stiffer settings.

Rear bar fitment -
At first glance it looks like it won't work due to a slightly different bend on one end. This actually is not a concern as it seems to line up fine. I will say this - the kartboy endlinks we have on the car will work for the soft setting, and will barely work for the middle setting.

I do not believe they will work for the stiff setting. I DO NOT feel this is a deal breaker. Listen, this bar is already really stiff at the soft setting, and will be moreso at the middle setting. On a street car you should never ever need anything other than the soft setting. I can see with some better tires needing to go to the middle setting for motorsports work.

It is my opinion that if you were to run the stiffest setting on the street then you are an idiot, and Darwin will take care of the problem shortly. I don't care how good of a driver you or your friend think you are. I know what will happen shortly if you try and do it.

Now, with that being said, I would not ever be concerned about a fixed length bushing style link and the stiff setting as I just don't see that combo needing to be used by normal people. Instead the stiff setting should be considered for SERIOUS motorsports use and never the street. When we start talking that level of use we are also talking adjustable length endlinks with spherical bearings. At that level of use you'll also be using tires that should never see the street except when rolled out to your trailer. See what I said there? Trailer. As in the car doesn't get driven to the track, but gets trailered to the track. There is NO street tire that will be able to make the best use of this setting.

Rear bar feel -
It feels good on the soft setting with these tires. Stiff, but good. The rear end stays flat, and after modifying my line a bit I was able to adjust where the back end steps out. Control is maintained with a touch of throttle steering. Better tires, and I feel that just about anyone can go and have fun with this on a casual Sunday afternoon during a local autoX. If you're the type that runs dedicated autoX sticky tires this will work well, but if you need more rotation the middle setting should provide enough for even the nationals level guys.

As for the size - just because it's a different bar doesn't mean that the rules have changed. In order to utilize this bar EVEN ON THE SOFT SETTING you must have supporting mods. Those mods are:

• Dampers in good working order
• Springs stiffer than stock. In fact, I would venture to say that JDM Pinks aren't going to be enough, and you need to look at something with a bit more.
• At least rear Endlinks! Stockers ain't gonna cut it.
• To take advantage of the rate that these add you will want good tires. At the very least something along the lines of a 615, RE01-R, or other max/ultra/super summer tire. Yes, you can roll with them on all seasons, but don't go about tossing the car around like Peter. Be smooth in your actions and look ahead into a smooth line, not an abrupt mid-corner direction change.

Overall, I like these, but they may not be ideal for everyone. These are serious bars, and should be taken as such. Just throwing them on to your stock or near stock car will result in disappointment if your car or driving is not up to the level of what these offer.

Pictures are forthcoming (Rob has them somewhere), and I will more than happily answer questions as I see them.

-Clint

[MGizzle]

Clint, did you feel a difference in ride (significant)? Your last comment about this not being for a very close to stock car made this review for me because reading through it it sounded like they were on the very stiff side. I am on JDM pinks right now and am just looking for OHLINS struts down the road and a small ARB upgrade like the Cusco's.

Anyhow, what bushings did you have, the rubber ones or the poly?

Also, are you planing on runing these past winter? Curious about how the powder coat holds up.

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by MGizzle

Clint, did you feel a difference in ride (significant)? Your last comment about this not being for a very close to stock car made this review for me because reading through it it sounded like they were on the very stiff side. I am on JDM pinks right now and am just looking for OHLINS struts down the road and a small ARB upgrade like the Cusco's.

Anyhow, what bushings did you have, the rubber ones or the poly?

Also, are you planing on runing these past winter? Curious about how the powder coat holds up.

The ride itself isn't bad at all, and not highly altered. You can tell a bit of difference over something that affects one side of the car and not the other (tire ruts), but it's not surprising or rough.

I have the poly bushes.

I have not decided on the winter thing. Knowing me and my either lack of time or general laziness I imagine they will indeed be on a car and stay on through winter.

[oscargarza88]

nice write up!
so by serious bars... what would you consider the white line big bars? compared to these?
thanks

[SLY STi]

First, thank you for your unbiased review. Secondly, you mention that the Kartboy endlinks barely work on the middle setting, and will not work with the hardest setting. What endlinks would you recommend be used in conjunction with the hardest setting, IF one wanted to use that particular setting at the track?

[Icculus]

Thanks so much for your honest/unbiased review. It speaks volumes about both TiC and RCE. I just got through reading some threads about vendor character over on nasioc (don't ask why I was there) and it makes me just want to thank both you and Myles over and over again for the dedication both of your companies provide to this community. You provide us with a wealth of honest information and we as a community (or at least me personally) can't thank you enough. Now on to my thoughts/questions:

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

Rear bar fitment -
At first glance it looks like it won't work due to a slightly different bend on one end. This actually is not a concern as it seems to line up fine. I will say this - the kartboy endlinks we have on the car will work for the soft setting, and will barely work for the middle setting.

I do not believe they will work for the stiff setting. I DO NOT feel this is a deal breaker. Listen, this bar is already really stiff at the soft setting, and will be moreso at the middle setting. On a street car you should never ever need anything other than the soft setting. I can see with some better tires needing to go to the middle setting for motorsports work.

1) I could be reading wrong or reading to much between the lines but it almost sounds like it was a stretch to get it to fit properly even on the soft setting??? "Seems to line up fine" and "will work" just aren't the most confidence inspiring statements. I guess maybe deep inside I was hoping for a statement along the lines of--without question these are the best fitting bars ever made in the history automotive engineering

2) As my car falls into the stock suspension category you discuss further down I would have to be a complete jack@ss to run the rear bar on the stiffest setting and its something that I would never do. However for those people who are interested (Darwin be damned) do you think a product like the cobb adjustable rear mounts would help the endlinks to line up properly on the stiffest setting?

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

As for the size - just because it's a different bar doesn't mean that the rules have changed. In order to utilize this bar EVEN ON THE SOFT SETTING you must have supporting mods. Those mods are:

• Dampers in good working order
• Springs stiffer than stock. In fact, I would venture to say that JDM Pinks aren't going to be enough, and you need to look at something with a bit more.
• At least rear Endlinks! Stockers ain't gonna cut it.
• To take advantage of the rate that these add you will want good tires. At the very least something along the lines of a 615, RE01-R, or other max/ultra/super summer tire. Yes, you can roll with them on all seasons, but don't go about tossing the car around like Peter. Be smooth in your actions and look ahead into a smooth line, not an abrupt mid-corner direction change.

Overall, I like these, but they may not be ideal for everyone. These are serious bars, and should be taken as such. Just throwing them on to your stock or near stock car will result in disappointment if your car or driving is not up to the level of what these offer.

You've raised some serious questions in my mind as to whether the product I've been so anxiously awaiting shipment of is actually the right product for me on my stock struts, stock springs and re070's. I don't know whether I'm hoping you'll expound more on this or if I'm just putting it down in print to help me wrap my head around it. Either way, your honesty is not going to make you "unpopular" in my book. Its just given me quite a bit to think about and discuss with the guys at RCE.

[williaty]

Thanks Clint. Glad to have the good info on the forum to turn up in search!

[stretch]

I think they'll work OK on stock springs and struts, but I'd recommend keeping them on their soft settings if you do. It all gets pretty complicated, because installing aftermarket lowering springs puts a lot more stress on your dampers too. That, combined with sway bars, might result in the car feeling a little unsure of itself at the limit. On the other hand, the decrease in body roll will surely increase driver confidence for some.

So, unlike Clint, I think you'd want JDM "Pinks" or softer for big sways. With stock springs, I think people will still like these bars a lot. The larger bars will keep body roll from consuming what little suspension travel the stock struts have, which is important. Sway bars are still the single best modification for a stock suspension! Of course, if you've got aftermarket dampers or coilovers, firmer springs will work even better with these sways.

That's just general sway bar advice and not specific at all to the RCE sways. I'd say the same of Whiteline 27mm or 24mm bars.

I've only installed my RCE rear bar so far, but my review is going to take a little longer. I have been in touch with Myles regarding an issue with the rear bar. Clint noticed the cause but not the extent of the effect.

On the positive, I think we may finally have a sway bar with great, long lasting paint. I dropped mine a few times while trying to take pictures and hold an SLR camera. The paint was fine. Nice!

[05_GD7]

interesting reviews.....

This looks to be my replacement for my Cusco bar, who's finish has seen much much better days.

[RaceComp Engineering]

This is very good actually. I wanted some unbiased reviews of the product and in this case we have managed to do this BEFORE the general public gets the bars.

I will consult and exchange notes from Clint and Steve and go from there. I am sure Clint will chime in soon for some of the other questions. i just wanted to thank Steve( Stretch), Clint, Corey and Andy for their help in the development and review of this product so far.

Stay tuned !

Myles

[Turninconcepts.com]

Originally Posted by oscargarza88

nice write up!
so by serious bars... what would you consider the white line big bars? compared to these?
thanks

The big bars, the ones with part numbers ending in XXZ I would consider about on par with these.

Originally Posted by SLY STi

First, thank you for your unbiased review. Secondly, you mention that the Kartboy endlinks barely work on the middle setting, and will not work with the hardest setting. What endlinks would you recommend be used in conjunction with the hardest setting, IF one wanted to use that particular setting at the track?

There's a few out there. The ones that come to mind off the top of my head are the Poltek and Whiteline adjustable links with spherical bearings.

Originally Posted by Icculus

Thanks so much for your honest/unbiased review. It speaks volumes about both TiC and RCE. I just got through reading some threads about vendor character over on nasioc (don't ask why I was there) and it makes me just want to thank both you and Myles over and over again for the dedication both of your companies provide to this community. You provide us with a wealth of honest information and we as a community (or at least me personally) can't thank you enough. Now on to my thoughts/questions:




1) I could be reading wrong or reading to much between the lines but it almost sounds like it was a stretch to get it to fit properly even on the soft setting??? "Seems to line up fine" and "will work" just aren't the most confidence inspiring statements. I guess maybe deep inside I was hoping for a statement along the lines of--without question these are the best fitting bars ever made in the history automotive engineering

It fit fine on the softer setting, and will work but be tight on the middle setting.

2) As my car falls into the stock suspension category you discuss further down I would have to be a complete jack@ss to run the rear bar on the stiffest setting and its something that I would never do. However for those people who are interested (Darwin be damned) do you think a product like the cobb adjustable rear mounts would help the endlinks to line up properly on the stiffest setting?

the cobb mounts very well could. I would have to look into it.

As for running the stiffest setting on the street - I'm going to have to say no. I think it's just too much bar for the street at that setting and will actually get people in WAY over their heads. As for the folks who insist upon doing that - I'm fine with that. That just means less competition for me when Alicia Witt decides she wants to hook up with a Subaru driver.

You've raised some serious questions in my mind as to whether the product I've been so anxiously awaiting shipment of is actually the right product for me on my stock struts, stock springs and re070's. I don't know whether I'm hoping you'll expound more on this or if I'm just putting it down in print to help me wrap my head around it. Either way, your honesty is not going to make you "unpopular" in my book. Its just given me quite a bit to think about and discuss with the guys at RCE.

Originally Posted by stretch

I think they'll work OK on stock springs and struts, but I'd recommend keeping them on their soft settings if you do. It all gets pretty complicated, because installing aftermarket lowering springs puts a lot more stress on your dampers too. That, combined with sway bars, might result in the car feeling a little unsure of itself at the limit. On the other hand, the decrease in body roll will surely increase driver confidence for some.

So, unlike Clint, I think you'd want JDM "Pinks" or softer for big sways. With stock springs, I think people will still like these bars a lot. The larger bars will keep body roll from consuming what little suspension travel the stock struts have, which is important. Sway bars are still the single best modification for a stock suspension! Of course, if you've got aftermarket dampers or coilovers, firmer springs will work even better with these sways.

That's just general sway bar advice and not specific at all to the RCE sways. I'd say the same of Whiteline 27mm or 24mm bars.

I've only installed my RCE rear bar so far, but my review is going to take a little longer. I have been in touch with Myles regarding an issue with the rear bar. Clint noticed the cause but not the extent of the effect.

On the positive, I think we may finally have a sway bar with great, long lasting paint. I dropped mine a few times while trying to take pictures and hold an SLR camera. The paint was fine. Nice!

In my opinion I don't think the stock setup is enough for these bars. Front sure, but rear no.

This is a point where Stretch and I don't see eye to eye. While I agree with soft springs big bar approach on these cars I still feel that the stock suspension is too soft to take advantage of these bars.

Now, here's something interesting on a forum - a point where two people don't agree, yet don't hate each other. Notice that Stretch and I are not now yelling at each other or calling each other poopyheads. In fact Stretch and I have grown to be good friends and communicate quite a bit outside the forums. Just because we don't agree on something does not automatically mean that we hate each other. I think this gets lost in the world of forums.

[Icculus]

Thanks Clint, Myles, Stretch and anyone else involved whose names I don't know.

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

Now, here's something interesting on a forum - a point where two people don't agree, yet don't hate each other. Notice that Stretch and I are not now yelling at each other or calling each other poopyheads. In fact Stretch and I have grown to be good friends and communicate quite a bit outside the forums. Just because we don't agree on something does not automatically mean that we hate each other. I think this gets lost in the world of forums.

so true, so true. Although a small piece of me wish you would settle it with an iwsti exclusive no-holds-barred, flaming bobwire cage match

[stretch]

Now, here's something interesting on a forum - a point where two people don't agree, yet don't hate each other. Notice that Stretch and I are not now yelling at each other or calling each other poopyheads.

Yes, CLINT IS AN ASSet to the community, that's why I respect him.

[stretch]

Important Update:

OK, so I just got off the phone with Myles @ Racecomp, and I talked with Clint and Tony (the TiC crew) earlier today. I found two issues during installation, one in the front bar and one in the rear. (Sorry guys, I didn't want to find them!) These issues are going to postpone the release of the sway bar set, I think. Blame me! Myles will chime in with more information shortly.

The issue on the front bar involves fitment and the bushings. Racecomp is going to tweak the design before it is released. I did not install the prototype bar due to this fitment issue. Tony @ TiC got his installed, and I asked him to put his car on a lift and observe the sway bar mounts through their range of motion. I suspect he'll add more later.

The issue on the rear bar involves adjustability. I'm running the bar right now on full soft, and it feels incredible there. However, the firmer adjustments are unusable with the current design. So, Racecomp is going to tweak that, too. If it were marketed as a non-adjustable bar, this would be a perfect final design.

I won't get into details on either problem since these are prototype bars, and since nobody has them yet, I don't see the point in making the information public. (Besides, astute eyes could tell from the unmounted pictures.) The good news is that Racecomp now has a bunch of pictures detailing these problems, so the next revision should be the final one. *Knocks on wood.*


Driving Impressions Anyway:

Regardless, I went for a spin using my Cobb (~23mm) front bar and RCE rear (25.4mm) sway bar, and I loved this setup. I haven't had this much fun behind the wheel since I was running the stock front bar with the Whiteline 24mm rear, but when I installed the Cobb front bar, the fun subsided a bit. I like having more rear bar than front- always have, despite the popular combination to be otherwise. The RCE rear bar is noticeably stiffer than the Whiteline rear bar it replaced, so the balance has been restored and the fun is back again. (Only this time, the entire car is stiffer and sharper.) The car feels so, so neutral through the bends- whether you're abrupt or gentle, the two outside wheels start talking at the same time. From there it's easy to stick the line or induce more rotation. This is a car that feels built for sticky rubber and track events.

I wouldn't recommend a larger rear-than-front setup to normal folks who just drive to work, but if you want practice learning car control, this is a great way to do it! Just please trust me when I say this isn't a setup for guys who still blame the car if it spins.

I'm going to have to try setting the front RCE bar to soft, and the rear bar to "kill" when the tweaked bars arrive. I'm curious how much things will change when I try the setup on tires with tread.

My current suspension:

Turn-in Concepts SST coilovers; 7k/6k springs, -9 clicks front, -11 clicks rear
Cobb front sway bar
RCE rear sway bar
GT Spec anti-lift kit
-1.7 degrees negative camber front, -1.8 degrees rear
1/16th toe-out front, 1/16 toe-in rear
Stock wheels and tires (tires are way overdue for replacement)

[RaceComp Engineering]

Well this is what I wanted. I wanted to get the community involved with this project from the beginning to the end. I think Stretch couldnt understand why I wasnt upset when he told me this info ...but to me this is what needs to be found NOW before there are 300 sets out there. The thing is that the front issue is bushing placement. So this can be tweaked. No bad, just needs to be tweaked.

So this is what real time, open ended, community involved development is about and I am super glad we have the support because its only making the product better.

With that said we have some rear bars left over that can only be used on the soft setting ( 25.5) that we wil sell for super cheap so anyone who is interested, let us know.

Again...thanks for all your support. This is and will be our approach moreso in the future where we involve the community on our projects.

Myles

And FWIW....Stretch and Clint both,....are HUGE ASSets to the community !!