[idrivearocket]

Do the KW's and RCE's allow the spring preload and right height adjustment to be independent of each other?

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by idrivearocket

Do the KW's and RCE's allow the spring preload and right height adjustment to be independent of each other?

No. With 160mm front travel and 194mm rear...thats not an issue.

Myles

[idrivearocket]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

No. With 160mm front travel and 194mm rear...thats not an issue.

Myles

Thanks, but I don't understand how the amount of available travel answers my question. (other than the fact that you could potentially lower the car a lot)

On my last set of coilovers, you could lower the car down, but it reduced the spring preload simultaneously. This resulted in a bouncy car that was closer to the end of it's stroke. (a pretty bad combination, if you desire to set your car lower in the adjustment range) As you lower a car, you should be able to keep spring preload constant. (or perhaps increase it as you like)

Maybe playing with the dampening control you could reduce the bounce, but should you do this to compensate for lack of spring preload?

[antonch]

That's an interesting discussion on comfort and spring rates. Never thought about it like that. I am thinking of trying to get a ride in a car with 500/400 T2's and see if thats bearable on a DD. I am about 70% sure that it will be OK, and then check out something softer if thats too stiff.

I looked at pictures of RCE coilovers. It looks like there is a second helper spring. So when you change the preload maybe you are really just loading and unloading the helper spring??

Strech, think this one might be for you. But with the 500/400 combo do you think a 24/24 sway bar combo might better than 27/24? I am thinking that those spring rates will get more than enough roll resistance such that you don't need such a stiff bar up front. Probably might get a more neutral feeling car.


P.S. Has anyone done an analysis on RCE coilovers? Curious to see how well the valving matches the springs. I think the KW's were considered over-damped.

[GTWORX.com]

Originally Posted by idrivearocket

Thanks, but I don't understand how the amount of available travel answers my question. (other than the fact that you could potentially lower the car a lot)

On my last set of coilovers, you could lower the car down, but it reduced the spring preload simultaneously. This resulted in a bouncy car that was closer to the end of it's stroke. (a pretty bad combination, if you desire to set your car lower in the adjustment range) As you lower a car, you should be able to keep spring preload constant. (or perhaps increase it as you like)

Maybe playing with the dampening control you could reduce the bounce, but should you do this to compensate for lack of spring preload?

The helper springs front and rear keep you from preloading the main spring, so that's not an issue.

They are designed so that when run in the recommended range of ride heights, you have a ton of bump travel AND a ton of droop travel, something that coilovers that have separate ride height and preload adjustability generally lack.

If you look at the top coilover systems out there, most of them don't have separate ride height and spring preload adjustment. Moton, JRZ, Bilstein, AST, etc. Just something to keep in mind.


- Andrew

[jarvis210]

KWv3 have a great ride quality. I daily drive mine and love them

[r12rex]

Originally Posted by antonch

Strech, think this one might be for you. But with the 500/400 combo do you think a 24/24 sway bar combo might better than 27/24? I am thinking that those spring rates will get more than enough roll resistance such that you don't need such a stiff bar up front. Probably might get a more neutral feeling car.


P.S. Has anyone done an analysis on RCE coilovers? Curious to see how well the valving matches the springs. I think the KW's were considered over-damped.

You got the right idea here. With spring rates that high a 27 bar is likely not needed, but this is not say it can't be done because in fact, many have run a 27 bar with those spring rates with great success. Running a nice large bar like that up front still causes slight understeer in our cars.

Originally Posted by antonch

Ryan, what are you alignment settings like? Does the car push at all with the 27mm FSB?
I am planning on keeping rear alignment as is, but maxing out the front camber. Trying to do it with camber bolts but not sure if I can get the amount of camber that I am looking for.

On the street my alignment settings are fairly mild at most with F being -1.8 R -1.2 and 0 toe.

I haven't gone 8/10 on the street with my car for the obvious reasons and haven't tracked my car with my current set-up yet, so I can't really say, but from others' experiences the car will push a little with the front bar being larger. With some aggressive street driving, at most I'm thinking 6/10, the car remains VERY neutral. I get great rotation from the back end and the car is VERY stable and controllable. I think as the car reaches its' handling limit, the car will push slightly. Mind you this though, I don't track my car with my street alignment. Front camber goes to -2.0 - -2.5 with my camber plates. Rear stays the same.



Kind Regards,
Ryan

[antonch]

Originally Posted by r12rex

You got the right idea here. With spring rates that high a 27 bar is likely not needed, but this is not say it can't be done because in fact, many have run a 27 bar with those spring rates with great success. Running a nice large bar like that up front still causes slight understeer in our cars.


On the street my alignment settings are fairly mild at most with F being -1.8 R -1.2 and 0 toe.

I haven't gone 8/10 on the street with my car for the obvious reasons and haven't tracked my car with my current set-up yet, so I can't really say, but from others' experiences the car will push a little with the front bar being larger. With some aggressive street driving, at most I'm thinking 6/10, the car remains VERY neutral. I get great rotation from the back end and the car is VERY stable and controllable. I think as the car reaches its' handling limit, the car will push slightly. Mind you this though, I don't track my car with my street alignment. Front camber goes to -2.0 - -2.5 with my camber plates. Rear stays the same.



Kind Regards,
Ryan

Ryan, sell me your sways when you decide to go with something else ....I will be doing mostly dailying this setup so I am looking for a flat feeling. Some slight push might be even a good thing on the street, sometimes I don't think you want the car to want car to overly rotate.
I've seen EVOs follow embankments and they stay absolutely flat. Might not be the fastest way around the track but will probably give the most "fun" factor on the street.

From what I've seen on other McPhurson strut cars is that 2-3* of negative camber with 0 toe gives good turn-in + doesn't kill the tires. I wonder if more camber will fix the tendency to push with 27mm FSB.

After doing more research it looks like KW and RCE share the same design. How easy is it to adjust bump/rebound once they are on the car? How about rear camber?

Myles, I will give you a call once I have some cash in hand.

[stretch]

antonch, if you want the non-committal sway bar choice, go with RCE's sways. They offer a larger range of adjustment than Whiteline, so you can better determine what sway bar setup you like. I personally like equal size sways front and rear.

[idrivearocket]

Originally Posted by GTWORX.com

The helper springs front and rear keep you from preloading the main spring, so that's not an issue.

They are designed so that when run in the recommended range of ride heights, you have a ton of bump travel AND a ton of droop travel, something that coilovers that have separate ride height and preload adjustability generally lack.

If you look at the top coilover systems out there, most of them don't have separate ride height and spring preload adjustment. Moton, JRZ, Bilstein, AST, etc. Just something to keep in mind.


- Andrew

Ahhh... so is that the reason for the helper spring? To keep the main preload constant while you adjust the ride height? Is there any other purpose for the helper spring, or is it put there for this purpose only?

[GTWORX.com]

Originally Posted by idrivearocket

Ahhh... so is that the reason for the helper spring? To keep the main preload constant while you adjust the ride height? Is there any other purpose for the helper spring, or is it put there for this purpose only?

It also keeps a little tension on the main spring at full droop when the damper is fully extended. So the main spring doesn't become unseated from the perch.


- Andrew

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

No. With 160mm front travel and 194mm rear...thats not an issue.

Myles

It's a huge issue once you get the car off street tires.

[stretch]

Originally Posted by sciolist

It's a huge issue once you get the car off street tires.

...why?

[sciolist]

The short answer is that there's inadequate rear droop travel to compensate for the added grip, so the car is going to want to pick up its rear inside wheel.

Considering suspension, alignment and drivetrain variables, yes, it is possible to minimize the lifting. But it will not be eliminated, and the car will not be anywhere near optimized.

I should also say, I'm only talking about autoX, and only on race tires (and obviously with a stiffer-than-stock suspension). For anything else on tarmac, the KW's probably have plenty of travel.

I do think it's desirable to have double height adjustment, all other things being equal, but of course all other things are not equal.

Basic point just is that if you are going to build an SP/SM car, let's say up to 75% or so, you are going to want more rear droop travel. For 99.9% of the people on here, this is irrelevant. I'm making the comment for the person who might end up doing this in a series of steps, and might not realize at the outset that this is an issue.

[r12rex]

Originally Posted by antonch

Ryan, sell me your sways when you decide to go with something else ....I will be doing mostly dailying this setup so I am looking for a flat feeling. Some slight push might be even a good thing on the street, sometimes I don't think you want the car to want car to overly rotate.
I've seen EVOs follow embankments and they stay absolutely flat. Might not be the fastest way around the track but will probably give the most "fun" factor on the street.

From what I've seen on other McPhurson strut cars is that 2-3* of negative camber with 0 toe gives good turn-in + doesn't kill the tires. I wonder if more camber will fix the tendency to push with 27mm FSB.

After doing more research it looks like KW and RCE share the same design. How easy is it to adjust bump/rebound once they are on the car? How about rear camber?

Myles, I will give you a call once I have some cash in hand.

Sways are for sale actually. PM me.

If you want the car to push more, which I feel is much safer for the street UNLESS you know how to control your car...seriously, More Negative camber up front, less in the rear. Most guys on the boards run -1.5 in the rear, I've had this previously and the car just rotated WAY too much for my liking on the street, so I bumped up to -1.3...this helped quite a bit, but was still a bit uncomfortable, I love it at -1.2 now actually.

The easiest way to create more push for the car would be to decrease the rear sway size and increase the front. So instead of running 27/24 F/R run 27/22. You can then further tune the suspension via tire pressures and damping.

In all honesty, I would not run anything more than -2.0 on the street...that's actually quite a bit and enough to cause an increase in tire wear. For the street I think anywhere between -1.5 - -2.0 is perfect.

KW makes RCE T2s. They are constructed the same way with the exception of RCE's specific valving and spring rates. They are essentially an aggresive type of the KW V3s.

Rear camber is adjusted via the slot down on the ears of the strut. No need for camber plates in the rear UNLESS you want to run a nice wide wheel/tire set-up. Otherwise, I get more than I'll ever need for rear camber adjustment.

Valving adjustments are quick and easy. I'm trying to make a set of extended adjustment knobs for the rear that way I don't have to pop the back seat off. Adjustments are made up top and down below on the coilover.

Overall, I think you'll be quite satisfied with the RCE T2s.


Kind Regards,
Ryan