[Turninconcepts.com]

OMGOMGOMG!!!! Draco this thread is going to be LEGENDARY!!!! Next time I'm up your way you get a big hug.

[SlowScooby]

Wow awesome thread Draco, I really like the way you take the time to describe what each bushing does, why you like it and how it's done. You have inspired me to move bushings to the top of my mod list.

Good form :golf clap:

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

OMGOMGOMG!!!! Draco this thread is going to be LEGENDARY!!!! Next time I'm up your way you get a big hug.

LOL. I hope this thread lives up to your expectations. I have my first Autocross in the STI this weekend. So I hope to have some more impressions to add.

Originally Posted by SlowScooby

Wow awesome thread Draco, I really like the way you take the time to describe what each bushing does, why you like it and how it's done. You have inspired me to move bushings to the top of my mod list.

Good form :golf clap:

You won't be sorry with the bushings. The changes will be subtle at first, but as you drive with them, you'll start to notice things.. "Hey, I don't get that wiggle on that corner any more.."

[Draco-REX]

Updated Swaybars and Endlinks.

Please post any comments/questions/suggestions you might have. I'm more than happy to discuss my experiences, and would like to know if there are any aspects of this that I've missed.

[williaty]

BTW, Draco and I do all this work in my garage with hand tools. 3 years ago, literally the only thing I knew how to do was change my oil. Now, I can do basically anything other than engine and tranny internals. To any of you out there who are on the fence about this stuff, just find a good tutorial and go for it. Almost all the all of the suspension work is just big, dumb, simple (kind of like me...) stuff that's mentally easy but can be physically hard because you beat the crap out of stuff sometimes. Just do it.

BTW, Draco and I are going in the same directions with our cars, though mine is obviously a bit different due to being a NA wagon. The best parts about these setups are that they're rugged, reliable, comfortable as a DD, and surprise the hell out of anyone who thinks they're going to be faster than you. I live near a Lambo Gallardo. In the corners, he can't get away from me and I can't get away from him. Of course, on the straights, I eat rubber, flames, and little bits of road but as Colin McRae said "Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers." This is really a rewarding direction to take your car in. It's absolutely easy to live with day to day but becomes and absolute joy to drive the moment you get a clear road and a nice turn in front of you. Good tarmac, bad tarmac, good gravel, bad gravel, nothing but dirt, AX, RX, road rally, these setups will do everything well. Obviously, a setup targeted at one specific activity will work better for that specific activity, but the trade off is that the setup starts to suck for everything else. A corner carving DD can be very good at a very wide variety of activities. There's also something to be said for being able to load a table saw into the back of the car and still be able to take the long way home

[williaty]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

I took a friend for my shakedown run after just bolting a 24mm rear bar on and he was shocked. "Wow! The car actually TURNED!"

Who went with you? That day was SO CRAZY (we did trailing links and rear of trailing link bushings on 6 cars plus front and rear sways on 2 cars in about 12-18 hours as a single push) that I have no idea who went with you.

It was later when I decided the 27mm was WAY too big. I often go on "fun runs" to the twisty roads in the area with other subaru owners. We have a blast and cover pretty much every kind of road surface imagineable. What I noticed was that on tight, bumpy corners, the inside tire would skip across the bumps. Not at all a good feeling, and definately a contributer to understeer.

This is one of the biggest reasons why I'm still running a stock diameter front sway. Chassis roll doesn't inherently make a car slower and reducing chassis roll won't inherently make the car faster. So long as you're doing something to come up with adequate dynamic camber in the front (in my case, additional static negative camber, ALK, and overall decreased bushing compliance), roll isn't a major problem. However, over-stiffening the car in roll CAN be a HUGE problem. For one thing, increasing roll stiffness decreases the ability of the wheels to act independently. If we wanted the front wheels to do the same thing at the same time, we'd be running solid axles. Additionally, a big bar creates a problem for damping. The spring rate of even a mild bar is MUCH higher than the spring rate of your actual springs. Get the bar too big, and it's impossible to properly damp the suspension in two-wheel movement (pitch, heave, hitting a speed bump, getting on the brakes, etc) and 1-wheel movement (warp, pothole, roll, etc) at the same time. All in all, off the track, I'd rather accept a little more chassis roll and give the wheels a better chance at staying planted to the road. This will make you faster in the real world because the flattest cornering car in the world can't corner quickly if the wheels are pattering up and down.

BTW, this comment wasn't directed at Draco as he and I have discussed this at length. It's more for people new to suspension tuning reading this thread.

Now, while I won't recommend a 27mm front bar for a mildly modified suspension, I will add that my car FELT great.

This is another HUGE idea for people just getting in to suspension work to understand. Just because the car "feels" quick DOES NOT mean it IS quick. Huge roll stiffness, lots of damping, super stiff springs, all sorts of things make your car feel quick like a go-kart and fun as hell to drive... for the first week. Turns out, a lot of things that feel quick will either have no effect on your actual handling performance or potentially even make you slower. Generally, getting anything too stiff will make it feel quick, but will piss off your tire contact patch enough to make you slower. Everything you're doing with suspension is about optimizing the contact patch between the tire and the road. If you're hurting that relationship in any way, you're making the car slower.

As a personal anecdote, I proved this to myself when I first got adjustable dampers. I started from soft and gradually turned them up over time. At first, it felt like everything was getting better. Eventually, the car felt REALLY FAST. You could jerk the wheel back and forth and the car would just corner like it was on rails. It didn't roll as much, pitch around as much, it felt like a race car.... Then I realized that I was actually struggling to get around a set of turns near my house at 45 when I'd previously gone through them with the cruise control on at 60. I'd gotten the suspension so stiff the wheels couldn't track the road. Little tiny bumps in the corners were upsetting that all-important contact patch and my grip was evaporating away. Turning the dampers back down significantly resulted in the car feeling (in comparison) like I was driving on top of a pilates ball. However, that car is now glued to the road. I will admit I look funny as hell cornering like a cartoon car leaned WAAAAAAY over with the inside wheels becoming twice as tall as they are wide to get back down to the ground. Doesn't slow me down though.


Just keep in mind that what feels fast isn't always fast.

[stretch]

Wow, I originally thought this was the type of thread that belonged in the Member Journals section, but absolutely not anymore! Great info, guys. I think it sums up what has been written in most of the other threads here very well, with emphasis placed where it needs to be and not where it is typically found. Great work on presenting the issues and the answers.

Draco and Williaty got things right on how to fix issues with the car instead of trying to band-aid them in a way that introduces other issues. (Running too large of a front sway is a good example just mentioned, but there are certainly others.)

I just wish this thread could be peer-edited, like a Wiki, so that Williaty (and I, and perhaps others) could add in comments to the original post rather than those responses being burried on subsequent pages. (That, and other users years from now could keep the 'recommended modifications' list current.)

Looking forward to the rest, since I think the geometry and spring sections are going to be much less clear-cut.

[Urban07STI]

Subscribed, this is EXACTLY what I have been looking for, thanks!

[Draco-REX]

Thanks for the replys guys.

The geometry section (ALK and RCAs) is the one I'm dreading. There's SO much information to convey that I'm worried I won't be able to do it clearly.

Spring selection, though a real complex issue, is relatively simple in execution when you're running struts on a DD. That will probably be a disappointing section for the hardcore suspension guys. But then, this thread isn't about getting every ounce of performance from the car for a track. Instead it's about a great DD setup that can do double-duty on the track/auto-x without feeling like it's hindering you.

It would be cool to have a SubiWiki.

I'm probably not going to have time to add to this today, so I should get to it Friday. Saturday will be my first AutoX in the STI, so I may make some revisions that night or sunday, we'll see. Which reminds me, do you think I should try slamming my camber plates for the Auto-X? I'm at 2 degrees now, so if I slam the plates I should be over 3. I'll be running on my street tires (in prepared! lol).

EDIT: Nevermind. I had a second thought and have devised a new and insane plan for the Auto-X. In the morning I'll run my stret setup. But in the afternoon I'll slam the plates, put the rear bar on full stiff, and leave the DCCD in "Open." I'll see if I can drift an STI.

[GTWORX.com]

Post the rest....the suspense is killing me!

Seriously, awesome write-up so far. Thanks for taking the time to post details and your thought processes behind the path you chose....gonna be a big help for people. A lot of people don't know much about all the bushings you've put on so this will be helpful.


- Andrew

[Gixx6]

Great write up so far...always enjoy reading specifics in regards to upgrades and how each affects the car.

That being said how much do you think you will have spent by the time you have the ultimate street setup?

- James

[williaty]

Originally Posted by Gixx6

That being said how much do you think you will have spent by the time you have the ultimate street setup?

[Gixx6]

I am just quoting the title of the thread...thanks for that!!!

and it's a legit question, give me a break.

[williaty]

Originally Posted by Gixx6

I am just quoting the title of the thread...thanks for that!!!

and it's a legit question, give me a break.

No, no, no, you misunderstood me. I'm laughing at the amount of money involved in this. I actually don't know what he spent, but I know what I spent, and most of the places where I bought the bargain parts, he bought the best in the business, so I KNOW he spent more than I did.

BTW, if you're having a shop do this stuff, the parts cost isn't the bulk of the money. Assuming the $80/hr shop fee that's standard around here, I've saved about $8500 by installing this stuff myself as compared to book time for this stuff.

[Gixx6]

Haha that's why I can't stand message forums, can never tell the meaning/tone of a message.

That's enough spamming from me haha.