[crf-sti]

^^very true!

[twp4ever]

oh yeah.. it helps!!!!

[Nasioc_STi]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

and your kidneys and spine would hate you.

lol they hated me back in 2004 when i took the rear suspension off the ZX6R and replaced it with a solid bar .

[MGizzle]

Basically and theoretically the answer is yes. I have seen it done properly and it works. However, keep this in mind.

Smooth roads = no nead for ARB. You can use springs only. People do this but how many tracks outhere do you know that are perfectly smoooth?? There is a few but no too many.

Any bumps = you probably want an ARB. Like stretch and TiC pointed out, the ARB gives you more for less and in bumpy situations your car would pick up off the ground everytime with stiff set ups (unless you have wicked aero). Car off the ground = no tire to give traction.

[dustynyc]

Originally Posted by stretch

To get as much roll resistance with springs as you do with a 27mm front sway bar, you'd need to increase your main spring rate up front by nearly 1370lb/in (for about 1770lb/in total). A more modest 24mm sway adds 860lb/in to your wheel rate, still roughly double what front coilover springs typically do (and four times stock). Either way, sways have a huge effect.

Because sway bars provide so much more roll resistance than springs, even mild sway bar increases are very easily felt. You simply cannot practically reduce body roll with springs as much as you can with sways. The real debate is whether those cars running a ton of roll resistance are faster than the cars with body roll, and that gets complicated.

Stretch, Can you elaborate a little further on your last point? Obviously body roll can work against you at some point, What's your take on striking a balance?

[twp4ever]

i like my whiteline 27 front 24 rear...

[polyol]

No one (almost no one) at autox nationals in BSP or SM use a rear sway bar. Granted they run very high spring rates. Ive thought about ditching my rear sway for autox; however, my spring rates are not that high.

[wrxtc]

I really like the idea of softer springs with (relatively) stiff bars. I used to run the Whiteline Group4 suspension (9k front, 8k rear) with Strano 32mm front bar and Whiteline 24mm rear bar (set to middle holes) and the car was very confidence inspiring. Then I blew out a rear strut and swapped on the stock rear struts and set the 24mm bar to full stiff. It was far too easy to lose rear grip with the rear bar set full stiff (poly endlinks) with the 8k rear springs but just fine with the stockers. The car was still pretty drivable but the extra pitching and rear grip made it a pain.

I ran my car over a rounded off concrete median a while back and cracked my driver's side front strut clean in half (sigh, don't ask). So now I'm back to stock struts and springs all around. I also swapped on the 27mm front and rear Whiteline bars with spherical endlinks because I felt the 24mm rear was still not enough on full stiff for the tight parking lots I tend to autocross in. The main reason I swapped out the Strano was the noise it made. Now the car has no problem at all getting the tail out but it's anything but confidence inspiring. A certain hotshot Evolution Performance Driving School instructor spun it out about 5 seconds into his first run in my car at the Phase2 school I did a few weeks back. I think an uber stiff rear bar is a bad idea on soft progressive springs!

The Strano bar was probably a little too stiff for 9k front springs on 245 street tires although it was working pretty well for me when I had the complete Whiteline suspension on the car. Next time around I'm going to try softer springs like what TiC is doing with their version of the ASTs and the 27mm rear bar on full soft with the more compliant spherical endlinks. I want a car that can be tossed into corners relatively hard without a massive push or spin. Easier said than done!

Edit: My perspective is purely from driving on street tires. Driving on big race rubber changes things dramatically, hence running uber springs with no rear bar in BSP and SM.

[stretch]

I really like the idea of softer springs with (relatively) stiff bars.

Me too- ESPECIALLY for cars on real street surfaces, where being fast means still being able to absorb bumps. (For bumpy roads, stiff sways can be bad too, but at least they're a great compromise for most situations.)

Originally Posted by polyol

No one (almost no one) at autox nationals in BSP or SM use a rear sway bar. Granted they run very high spring rates. Ive thought about ditching my rear sway for autox; however, my spring rates are not that high.

I wish I had the funds and time to set up a BSP or especially an SM car. I am certain I would take a different approach, but I just don't have the resources to try my ideas. I can't imagine ditching the rear sway and still believe the "wheel lift at apex" problem can be fixed other ways (my first bet is on too much rebound in the dampers).

Originally Posted by dustynyc

Stretch, Can you elaborate a little further on your last point? Obviously body roll can work against you at some point, What's your take on striking a balance?

In short, with a cars running insane 29mm (or higher) sway bars, your front spring rate during body roll is going to be over 2000lb/in, with almost all of that coming from the sway bar. Thus, you don't really have an independent suspension anymore. Yet, cars with 29mm sway bars still seem to have 3 degrees of body roll, which is not nearly the drastic reduction in roll we'd expect from stock. This is because while the sway bar is not deflecting, the tires (and some bushings) still are. So, why bother losing the suspension independence?

I don't have time at the moment to write a dissertation on the subject, but in short, I believe there are very diminished rewards as you continue going stiffer, yet not diminished drawbacks.

[boxtwo]

+20 (or however many people agreed)

I did my rear first. Huge difference. Then did the front a couple of months later, and again, another huge difference.

[ButtDyno]

Originally Posted by stretch

To get as much roll resistance with springs as you do with a 27mm front sway bar, you'd need to increase your main spring rate up front by nearly 1370lb/in (for about 1770lb/in total). A more modest 24mm sway adds 860lb/in to your wheel rate, still roughly double what front coilover springs typically do (and four times stock).

My experiment this year with a smaller bar bears this out. I am on 450/500 lb springs. Last year I was on the 27mm Whiteline, this year it's the 23mm-ish Cobb. No matter what I do I can't get the car to feel anywhere near as good as it did last year- turn-in especially, but to some extent steady state as well. The 27mm is going back on the car soon

[idrivearocket]

Originally Posted by boxtwo

+20 (or however many people agreed)

I did my rear first. Huge difference. Then did the front a couple of months later, and again, another huge difference.

Yes, but most people dicsussed how nice their car rides with road complient suspension and sway bars. We all know this makes a good improvement. My question was more regarding way of setting up spring rates and independent wheel control to generate the same kinds of desired effects that sway bars are able to achieve. We have many good discussions regarding this...

In some forms of timed competition you are handicapped for adding suspention components and there may be ways to maximize car setup by using the least amount of modification.

[idrivearocket]

Originally Posted by ButtDyno

My experiment this year with a smaller bar bears this out. I am on 450/500 lb springs. Last year I was on the 27mm Whiteline, this year it's the 23mm-ish Cobb. No matter what I do I can't get the car to feel anywhere near as good as it did last year- turn-in especially, but to some extent steady state as well. The 27mm is going back on the car soon

How does 'feel' relate to the actual resulting lap time? Are you going slower now? Just curious if you tried different spring rates or adjust the compression with those softer bars too?

[ButtDyno]

Originally Posted by idrivearocket

How does 'feel' relate to the actual resulting lap time? Are you going slower now? Just curious if you tried different spring rates or adjust the compression with those softer bars too?

1. Feel is confidence, confidence is fast.
2. The serious understeer at turn-in makes it very, very difficult to stay on the gas, and if you can't stay on the gas in a Subaru your times are going to suck.

[stretch]

Understeer at turn-in, really? That's exactly the opposite of my experience. I'm curious what causes the complete opposite effect. With a smaller bar, turn-in isn't as sharp, but that's only because it takes a small fraction of a second longer to load up the front tires. Grip should have been (and for me, was) improved once the tires load up, which again, takes only the smallest fraction of a second. But you still don't run an aftermarket rear sway bar, correct?