[Turninconcepts.com]

In the joy and pain of modding a car it is very very easy to go overboard. After a while the question becomes when do you stop?

While the answer will be different for all involved here are some simple guidelines to keep in mind in all of this.

First off - do not put yourself into the poorhouse modding your car. Listen, despite your best efforts 99.9999% of these cars are going to depreciate in value. That's just the way it is, but then again that's not really why we do this. Despite the best effort to have fun and enjoy your car more than you do already putting yourself into debt is not the way to go.

Keep in mind the old saying - if you want to make a small fortune then start with a large one and get into auto racing.

Second off - the parts. Between braces, bushings, springs, struts, coilovers, roll bars, endlinks, bearings, uprights, rotors, pads, fluids, gearing, power and any other thing you can think of in way of performance it is easy to go overboard. It is easy to get stuff you'll never use to its full potential.

Think about what you are doing. Is the part right for what you want. Will the part solve a problem you are having or, in the case of timed events go faster, or, in the case of just daily driving the car, still allow you to enjoy the car.

There is an envelope.

First off that envelope involves you, and whether or not you can use the part. Hopefully, you won't be a better driver than the part allows because if you add the part you want it to help not leave you where you started. It doesn't do much good if you exceed the capabilities of the part right from the get go. If you're already outdriving the new part from the beginning then you didn't get the right part for your needs.

Second, there's taking a part too far. There is a performance envelope that when you start to take things too far you'll actually start to hurt yourself.

As an example lets look at springs -

• For a daily driver and the way that springs go the stockers really aren't that bad. Sure a good number of people can exceed what they offer, so they step up in stiffness (I'm leaving dampers out of this for now as to keep from muddying up things).
• So, folks are beyond what the stockers will allow and they feel it's time to move up to something a little stiffer. No problem - there's a TON of good springs on the market that will meet the needs of this example quite handily.
• BUT lets say that's not enough. Now you start to get into the higher end of spring rates for the car, and you're looking at 7,8, 9K rates with the travel you feel you need. Now to really make use of these you're going to be driving hard, and you know it. Typically, you're looking at competition environments beit autoX or road race.
• So you get to thinking - if 7,8 or 9K rates are so great why don't I just say screw it and get myself some 14K springs and never have to worry about it again. BANG! You've just exceeded the performance envelope that the car can offer. At that point adding more and more is actually going to hurt your performance. The car just does have the downforce, has too high of a CG, and you can't get the tires sticky enough to take the best advantage of a 14K rate. At that point in time you're going to start to see performance drop off. (diminishing returns and all).

So, here's what we have so far -

• Don't kill yourself financially doing this
• Look at what you realistically can do, and what the car realistically can do. You are not Mario, and your car is not an F1 car. In fact, those of you with pre-2008 cars are gonna be in for a surprise once folks have figured out the rear suspension on the 2008's. That'll be in about a year to 18 months.
• Understand that more is not always better. You are looking for balance between maximizing your skill and the car being able to take it and offer a little more without being too much.

So, at what point do you know when to say when.

Follow these steps:

• Identify the problem you are having. This is key. If you're having trouble figuring out if it's something like chassis flex, or spring rate, or rebound rate or any number of other things then ask for help and get second opinions. Take people for a ride, describe what is happening, describe your theory, discuss it with others.
• Identify the parts that will address the problem. In doing this ask yourself - are they enough? Are they too much? Will I ever take advantage of them?
• Understand the performance envelope.
• Read and research. Not just here, but everywhere.

How do you tell when you've gone too far?

• First, get it out of your head that if you spent money on it then it's great. Think of it this way - if someone gave you the part would you put it on your car, and why. People spend money on stuff all the time, and they are disappointed in what they have. I have an old playstation 1 that I haven't used in years, and when I did use it it wasn't that much. In the end it did nothing for me, and I should not have spent the money on it. Stupid me.
• Second, if you add a part and your lap time drops off quite a bit, and you can't make it up by altering small parts of your driving style then start to think about the last things you changed. For daily driven guys - the girlfriend, wife or significant other will tell you long before you realize it. If you don't have a girlfriend or significant other then get one. Although, the pick up line of "Hey baby, let me take you for a ride in my car even though you don't know me, and you don't know where we're going" will not work, and I certainly hope there's nobody out there dumb enough to actually try it. If you do I will not be bailing you out of jail because you creeped someone out.
• Talk to others.
• Think about what you're doing. Do not think that just because someone else says "You have to get this!!!" That you should. Man up and make your own decisions, and make them based on knowledge and understanding.

So, you've got all this stuff, but you can't even begin to drive the car to its potential. Now what?

• Rather than spend money on more parts spend money on seat time!!!!
• Get an instructor.
• Listen to them.
• Understand that after 2 lessons you will not be a professional race car driver.
• ALWAYS keep learning. I guarandamntee you that every single instructor while he is instructing you is thinking about the track and the best line to take. They learn from you just as you learn from them (and I bet Myles pops in here within 24 hours to back this up).
• Recognize how far you can and are willing to drive the car (wrecks happen, not if, but when and can get expensive). Understand that if you build up the ultimate time attack car, but can't even begin to approach what it can do then you've just made an expensive car and that's it. And woe be to you if you wreck it.

Yeah - this is yet another one of those posts by me. I'm betting someone chimes in here by the end of the first page to tear it apart. Bottom line is this - we all know this, and this is not anything new. If you sit down and think about it you'll say "well, duh. Clint you're a dumbass and wasting bandwidth by posting this." Yeah, I may be a dumbass, but I also know how easy it is to forget this commonn sense when you have money in your pocket, and a car you want to go faster in.

-Clint

[xlsupreme]

I've gotten smarter since my honda days. Back then, I put a set of coilovers on my car, and the company i bought them from asked me what spring rates i wanted. rather than telling them i had no fking clue, i told them the rates i wanted. i ended up with a car that handle really well, on perfect roads, and tried to break itself on all the others.

with the STi, I decided to read more. to learn from other people experience, and not just accept words for fact. It sounds so simple, but I really didn't know what i wanted, and wasn't willing to admit it before.

You just need a plan. You need to work this thing out from beginning to end, and understand how much it will cost, and when you can afford it. It sounds simple, but that's because it is, Clint.

Good words.

[MGizzle]

I'm about to TEAR IT UP Clint!!!!! No, not really. It is nice to remind some of our younger and excited members that slowing down sometimes can help and it seems that when Vendors state it they believe it a bit more.

This sort of goes with my signature. Thinking that you are fast because you dropped 10-20k on your brand new STi doesn't mean you will be fast. Enjoy this beautiful car for a while and when you learn it start moding. This is the only way you can truly understand what each part does and if it was worth it.

Also, if you do more than 2+ mods on your car right away good luck trying to figure out if one made your car better and the other worst. Take your time and learn from your mods. Makes your "depreciating" car worth a lot more since you will learn something you can apply to most cars.

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Turninconcepts.com

(and I bet Myles pops in here within 24 hours to back this up).[*]Recognize how far you can and are willing to drive the car (wrecks happen, not if, but when and can get expensive). Understand that if you build up the ultimate time attack car, but can't even begin to approach what it can do then you've just made an expensive car and that's it. And woe be to you if you wreck it.[/list]


-Clint

It didnt take me that long...lol.

WORD, WORD,..I agree, and whats funny is I used to post my thoughts on these things and everyobe got tired of me doing it. I was accused of trying to get attention etc....so I am glad to see these things in black and white.

I could tell endless stories of instructing and all the "types" that get in the car. One guy even claimed to have driven Can Am in the 70's..yet 1 turn into his session it was apparent....that that was 30 years ago ...OR....it B.S. !!

Anyway,...good thoughts and some will listen and others wont.

Myles

[spazegun2213]

Clint, your words are golden! The are true, to the point and are priceless.

I'd like people to focus on something you said

Follow these steps:

* Identify the problem you are having. This is key. If you're having trouble figuring out if it's something like chassis flex, or spring rate, or rebound rate or any number of other things then ask for help and get second opinions. Take people for a ride, describe what is happening, describe your theory, discuss it with others.
* Identify the parts that will address the problem. In doing this ask yourself - are they enough? Are they too much? Will I ever take advantage of them?
* Understand the performance envelope.
* Read and research. Not just here, but everywhere.

But also remember that cars are a system of parts and that it may not be as simple as adding BIG rear sway to magically cure the sti's understeer. Sure it may seem like it, but dive a little deeper into what sways do (or ask someone who knows), and ask if they are actually solving the problem? Move to the next part, and the next and the next until you find the part that will "best" address the problem. Now, it may not be just one part, but it could be that simple.

I also want people to know that what I posted above is why RCE and TiC do so well. They KNOW these systems in and out, and will not hesitate to suggest a better part to add to cure a problem. Yes, they are also salesmen, but when you ask them to solve a problem not everything they suggest you to get will have a moton sticker on it (or it could if you have the coin). You can work with both about price per unit fun and what you can add to make the most out of your car. I have personally talked to myles for HOURS about just the setup of my sti, and my 944 as well as the trade offs of everything i wanted to add (or had on the car). I've talked to Clint online for hours about their parts and asked everything I needed.

I'll make this remark here, I've seen SO many people build up MONSTERS, only to realize thats not what they wanted, or that there is no way they can drive it, or that they wanted something more reliable, etc. Bottom line is, if you think dumping money into a car is enjoyable, GREAT! However, if you enjoy driving your car DO IT! Get into HPDEing/rally/autox and really DRIVE the car. Put parts on it that you want in support of your goals to DRIVE the car.

That is the reason i miss my sti, I never once got out of that car without a smile on my face...

[ESmooth]

The best mod I ever did for my STi was getting a cheap beater car. The car was great for the track, but too harsh for driving everyday. I ended up softening up the suspension for the daily use and the on track performance suffered. Its not feasable for everyone, but having the 2nd car has let me go pretty extreme with the STi without having to deal with it kicking my A55 everyday on the drive to work. Not only that, my beater is pretty slow with soft suspension, so the STi feels a lot faster and stiffer by comparison on the few days a week I do take it out, making me less eager to feel like it needs more mods....that hasnt stopped me from modding though

[MGizzle]

I must also admit that one great tool is playing some serious Gran Turismo 4 or so. I actually became an engineer because of that game during my high school days. You can learn a lot by just messing with settings and seing what it does to your car.

Also, it shows you how building monsters doesn't always give you a fun car. Go build up a STi (500hp) and drive it on soft street tires. Useless.

I know it is kind of irrelevant but a little bit of GT4 goes a long way

[SWortham]

Lots of good advice.

I've been modifying my own cars for 6 years now. I've been guilty of a lot of the "don'ts" in that list. But I have friends that are car enthusiasts & autocrossers and we help eachother out with installs and share knowledge and mistakes with eachother. I made lots and lots of mistakes with my last car, frequently caused by my tendency to be the pioneer to try a new part. But through my mistakes and research I've become the guy to ask for suspension setup advice whereas they're the guys with the engine knowledge and hands-on mechanical skills.

I'll tell you what, learning from others' mistakes is always easier than learning from your own, lol. There are lots of people to learn from here, in books, and elsewhere on the net. Spend plenty of time soaking it all in, then make your modding decisions with some sort of grand scheme or plan in mind.

[RaceComp Engineering]

karting, karting, karting, karting, karting......cant say it enough.

for a grand complete, you can go to Jim Hall in Ventura, ca and do a 2 day school and learn ALOT. If you dont come away from that with eyes wide open AND a deflated ego..,then there is no hope. I found if I get into a fast outdoor kart before a race weekend,,..I am faster. PERIOD. KArting is where its at. If you have kids and a wife....its another way to get the family into your "hobby".

Myles

[SWortham]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

karting, karting, karting, karting, karting......cant say it enough.

I still want to do this. I'm sure it'll look funny to see a 6'5" guy on a little kart, but who cares.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

karting, karting, karting, karting, karting......cant say it enough.

for a grand complete, you can go to Jim Hall in Ventura, ca and do a 2 day school and learn ALOT. If you dont come away from that with eyes wide open AND a deflated ego..,then there is no hope. Myles

So true, I've done the school twice and it's amazing. Karts and our cars are different worlds, but the concept of driver skills and knowledge is whats important.

As for the OG post, excellent advice, thankyou.

Recently, I decided I had gone to far with modding (no where near most people). I toned down a few key parts and couldn't be happier. Sure, I may have lost a fraction of performance, but I've gained in the 99.9% of the driving where that fraction doesn't matter.

[antonch]

Don't agree with 100% of it, but in general good advice

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by SWortham

I still want to do this. I'm sure it'll look funny to see a 6'5" guy on a little kart, but who cares.

Nope, I am 6.3 and they do have longer frames. People dont realize what 82mph into turn one trailbraking DEEEP means in a 18hp kart where the clutch engages at 9k.............its another world. I say you do it. I am so up for karting if you tell me when you are going, I would go at the same time and we could get a group price from IWSTI members.

ok, sorry Clint...back to the thread. I got al worked up there.

Myles

[pharo]

This actual thought process is what has made me go from "OMG I NEED COILOVERS" to wow I am a subpar driver and need to work on my driving first twenty times a day. I really appreciate TIC and RCE for answering all of my private messages over and over. I actually live 20 min from Jim Hall, and didn't even know it. I guess some mod money needs to be reallocated to karting school

[TreyV]

Originally Posted by MGizzle

I know it is kind of irrelevant but a little bit of GT4 goes a long way

Funny thing about Gran Turismo. When I got my 5-speed 2.5RS not long after I finished school, I had a grand total of one lesson ever to my name in an actual manual transmission. I had, however, played hundreds of hours of GT2 in manual shift mode. Geeky yes, but that seriously blunted the effect of going stone-cold-turkey off of automatic transmissions. I begged a lesson from a co-worker the evening I got the car, and then drove it to work the next morning. Mind you, later that week I did stall it four times in a row at a stoplight on a six-lane in morning rush hour.