[scottjua]

so many great points in the post.

In my own experience... I went through suspension bit adding slower on my STi than on my WRX wagon and could tell the difference more readily. Now I'm pretty satisfied with what I've done and have no complaints. I think I have a way to go in skill to eek every last bit out of the car as-is.

I've noticed with more seat time I'm increasingly faster. Without any further mods I'm able to measure my increase by noticing my own comfort level and lap times, and before where I struggled I am now being asked what mods I did since the last track day as others are being passed and caught.

lately I've been thinking about how much it all costs, and how much I'd really hate to stuff the thing into a tire wall or break something. Aside from getting a reaming from the wife... I'd be out of one daily driver and an expensive fix...(massive knock on wood). I've been thinking it might be smarter to buy a dedicated car or pick up karting.

[sti robot]

Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering

Nope, I am 6.3 and they do have longer frames. People dont realize what 82mph into turn one trailbraking DEEEP means in a 18hp kart where the clutch engages at 9k.............its another world. I say you do it. I am so up for karting if you tell me when you are going, I would go at the same time and we could get a group price from IWSTI members.

ok, sorry Clint...back to the thread. I got al worked up there.

Myles

Not to hijack but there is some karting at Allsports this thurs.

Clint I totally agree with everything you said. I think the smartest thing my wife did for me after we bought the car was make me agree to drive it for a few months before doing anything to it. I've pretty much reached the "when" point on the suspension with the car. Already out of the box it handles and goes way beyond what I can personally use with my limited skills.

[chaos311clarity]

great thread....

i think i am one of the ones who went a little overboard a bit too fast lol... my car as it sits is pretty much perfect for street driving... yet i feel like i need more... i guess because im a 24 yr old guy in the US and thats how we are. anyway... i can surely attest to taking things easy when modding. my wallet agrees.

[dukenukem]

I dont know if this applies directly to this thread but i guess a lot of people need to give their egos a rest when someone points out a fault in their setup or actions.

[XDNBC]

Good advice- we all know that seat time and then good tires are about 95% of good lap times. Ironically, it is because I use my STI as a daily driver that I run STU instead of A stock- I get the benefits of my suspension changes on HPDE days and the street.

BTW: Karting is NOT the answer. There is nothing so humbling as getting beaten by a 12 year old kid because he weighs 70 lbs and I weigh 180. And, that 12 yr old has been racing karts since he was 8- so he has more seat time too. With a 3300 lb car, weight is not a factor. In fact, when I am in good form my lap times are just as fast with 2 people in as with driving alone.

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by XDNBC

Good advice- we all know that seat time and then good tires are about 95% of good lap times. Ironically, it is because I use my STI as a daily driver that I run STU instead of A stock- I get the benefits of my suspension changes on HPDE days and the street.

BTW: Karting is NOT the answer. There is nothing so humbling as getting beaten by a 12 year old kid because he weighs 70 lbs and I weigh 180. And, that 12 yr old has been racing karts since he was 8- so he has more seat time too. With a 3300 lb car, weight is not a factor. In fact, when I am in good form my lap times are just as fast with 2 people in as with driving alone.

well you are in the minority with that opinion, but thats fine. I weigh 250 and race against lightweight guys all the time. That 100 lbs person can NOT brake as deep as the heavier person and lacks grip, so while it doesnt even out all the time, it does keep you chasing a faster person.

THIS HAS WORKED FOR ME !! My point was that karting is a great training ground. If you cant see that,..............oh well. Race craft comes from seat time and getting beat is reality more times than not. So learning is key and that what I meant by karting, karting karting. At 40 years old I have been racing for over 10 years and doing track days 7 years prior to that and autocrossing before that. I raced against a kid who was a Redbull finalist in 2004 and while his "lap time" was great and killed me on lap time,in the actual race he was owned in lapped traffic and strategy in the opening laps. Yes he cried whe he lost and his dad and I are friends now !! But he learned alot that day.

But yes, I do agree that for some it can humbling for some when the young kid wins. Hell, that can happen with people your same age against your peers.....

Myles

[Turbineguy]

Excellent post. This is why I still ride on the stock struts and just some springs and sways. This is also why I have an 18g snail and not the usual "start with a 20g and go up from there" upgrade. I learned a long time ago racing crotch rockets at the track that the limit is seldom with the equipment. I would love to try carting. Been interested in shifters for a long time. If it works for the F1 drivers in the off season there must be a reason.

[Boxer]

Nice thread Clint. I've been trying to say as much through the years on these boards. It's just ridiculous the amount of money some owners are putting into their cars in the hopes getting .00001sec and winning some mystic race late in the night.

Enjoy the car for what it is, shore up some of the factory costs compromised components with quality upgrades and be done with it. 90% of STis fit into this category.

[RaceComp Engineering]

bump for a great thead.

Myles

[stretch]

Whoa, thanks for the bump- I missed this thread initially.

I think the summary of this thread is simply that the car is only as fast as its driver. It's easy to install parts that make the car FEEL faster but my own experience is that it usually isn't actually faster. It's very difficult to know where on a course you, the driver, lost time and where time could have been gained by suspension tuning. For this reason, a competent driving background is crucial to understanding which parts you need.

There are lots of stories I'm sure Myles, TiC, and others could tell to reiterate this point. I sure have my own, too! I remember thinking my Mazda6 (the car I learned to autocross in) was getting fast (thanks to my numerous suspension modifications) until I autocrossed on the stock springs and all-season tires (!!!) and had a time that would've trophied STS at a WDCR SCCA (big) event. No joke. Turns out my times were dropping because of practice, not because of the money spent on the car. I couldn't believe it!

My list of big no-no for beginners:
- Racing compound tires (mask mistakes)
- High stiffness suspension (makes car less forgiving, isn't usually worth much time anyway)
- Adjustable anything (distraction from focusing on driving)
- Having the radio on (seriously, how many autocrossers do this?)

I think karting is an OUTSTANDING way to learn to drive for one reason: you can see EXACTLY when and where your competitors are faster than you. You know instantly when, where, and (hopefully) how you made a mistake. It's so, so easy to learn driving (but not so easy to perfect) on a kart. Autocrossing may be the ultimate in full-size vehicle control, but it's quite hard to know where you lost time. HPDE's are better in this regard although they can depend a bit much on your bravery. Still, karting is the best and easiest way to learn driving.

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by stretch

Whoa, thanks for the bump- I missed this thread initially.

I think the summary of this thread is simply that the car is only as fast as its driver. It's easy to install parts that make the car FEEL faster but my own experience is that it usually isn't actually faster. It's very difficult to know where on a course you, the driver, lost time and where time could have been gained by suspension tuning. For this reason, a competent driving background is crucial to understanding which parts you need.

There are lots of stories I'm sure Myles, TiC, and others could tell to reiterate this point. I sure have my own, too! I remember thinking my Mazda6 (the car I learned to autocross in) was getting fast (thanks to my numerous suspension modifications) until I autocrossed on the stock springs and all-season tires (!!!) and had a time that would've trophied STS at a WDCR SCCA (big) event. No joke. Turns out my times were dropping because of practice, not because of the money spent on the car. I couldn't believe it!

My list of big no-no for beginners:
- Racing compound tires (mask mistakes)
- High stiffness suspension (makes car less forgiving, isn't usually worth much time anyway)
- Adjustable anything (distraction from focusing on driving)
- Having the radio on (seriously, how many autocrossers do this?)

I think karting is an OUTSTANDING way to learn to drive for one reason: you can see EXACTLY when and where your competitors are faster than you. You know instantly when, where, and (hopefully) how you made a mistake. It's so, so easy to learn driving (but not so easy to perfect) on a kart. Autocrossing may be the ultimate in full-size vehicle control, but it's quite hard to know where you lost time. HPDE's are better in this regard although they can depend a bit much on your bravery. Still, karting is the best and easiest way to learn driving.

IWSTI KARTING NATIONALS held at Adams kart track ( west coast) and MEGA Karting (Southeast)..and F1 BOSTON OUTDOORS( North East)....

whatta you guys say?

Myles

[wrxcelration]

Ive never been karting but Ive always wanted to start since I was small.
Theres one by my house LVGP. Ive never been but its quite expensive. Its $20 for a race

[psuLemon]

subscribe!

[Gokart3]

What an awesome thread. Some great points in here from many of you. I haven't been on this forum for too long, but have some HPDE experience and raced karts as well. I ended up getting out of karts because of problems with my neck. (Not associated to a kart crash). It gives you an incredibly "pure" lesson in car control. Many things you do to tune a kart are different that in a car because the suspension in a kart is tire pressure, chassis flex, etc... You don't have springs, shocks, sway bars. BUT, the car control that you learn crosses over very well IMHO.

I also believe that MGizzle is spot on with teh Grand Turismo ref. I used to love playing Sega Rally on the Sega Saturn system. It was a great racing game for it's time with excellent relative action for inputs. Seemed just like what the car would do if you were driving it. Now I have a PS2, Gameracer chassis with an aluminum USRP race seat on it, Logitech Pro wheel/pedals, all hooked up to a dedicated (retired) old school 60 inch bigscreen. I spend A LOT of time playing on that thing, and I swear it makes me quicker in the car. Another came you may try MGizzle, if you haven't already, is TOCA Race Driver 3. EXCELLENT game. It replaced GT4 for me. The other thing that I really like about playing on the sim.... no in my rear view mirror.

But whether you're just getting started in modding cars and driving/racing, or you're experienced, there are most definitely some great points in Myles OG post and the others. I've been guilty of overdoing the mods myself, and it absolutely doesn't help, unless you're headed to a car show. I've seen guys on 800-1000 lb springs that just don't have the seat time to use them. One that wrote off a brand new race car that he *thought* he could drive. The wall on the left side of the backstrait at Portland International Raceway begged to differ... One high end racecar written off in it's first weekend.

And Myles, I was thinking of starting a thread just to say thanks for all the time you spent with me on the phone yesterday, but since you're here... I'll just say thanks now. I forgot about the time diff and called Myles just as he was walking out the door yesterday. He comes back in the shop, takes my number, then calls me from his cell and talks to me for 40 minutes on his drive home!!! Then tells me I can call him anytime, even on the cell if I have any further questions. Hell, we just sat and talked cars for a lot of the call.

I'm older that most here, and have probably had more cars than some of you have had pairs of shoes. I've dealt with hundreds of suppliers over the years, managed a Goodyear store for a few etc... I've got some experience. And I've been on some forums where guys like Myles (and Clint too) are taken for granted or even dragged thru the mud. You guys, and myself, are VERY lucky to have these guys here as vendors and advisors. I know that's sappy, but I just wanted to spit it out. As a matter of fact, I've got to give you a call now, before you're running out the door... and order some stuff!

Thanks!
Brad

[RaceComp Engineering]

Originally Posted by wrxcelration

Ive never been karting but Ive always wanted to start since I was small.
Theres one by my house LVGP. Ive never been but its quite expensive. Its $20 for a race

consider this. When you make a mistake at a indor karting track you just get passed and or bump a tire. When you make a mistake on a back road or on the track.......you get the following:

a. you get to make that call to your wife( who will NEVER Let you forget that moment).

a1. or to your GF, or MOM..or DAD ......

b. you get to talk to the tow truck driver about what happened......and listen to all his stories about people who balled it up at the track..OR on that "section" of road.

c. you get to explain to your insurance company how you fell asleep at the wheel,..or how there was a deer in the road......

d. you get to learn the hard way.

NOT saying that to YOU...but kinda putting it out there for the novices who probably spend TONS of money on power and spoilers. And if someone were to spend 100.00 per month on karting(nothing compared to gas prices) after a year they would be sooo much better a driver( to some degree) than the average next guy. 100 dollars is a small round of drinks in Vegas !! a Tank full of race fuel !! 100 double cheeseburgers !!

Anyway..you see my point.

KARTING ROCKS !!

Myles