[polyol]

Just got done at the alignment shop...and thought some of you would be interested in how much toe changes when changing Whiteline Plates (motorsport version). I had my plates set dead center (between 0 and full negative) and had about -1.0 degrees both sides. When I slamed the plates it took it to -2.3 degrees and induced a 1/4 degree of toe out. Oh BTW I have 6.2 degrees caster

So at the track ill be at...

-1.1 rear camber 0 toe

-2.3 front and .25 toe out

Whacha think?

[sciolist]

I'd vote for a little more camber and a little less toe in front. Rear is a pretty good starting point, assuming ride height/rake is close.

[polyol]

Originally Posted by sciolist

I'd vote for a little more camber and a little less toe in front. Rear is a pretty good starting point, assuming ride height/rake is close.

I would agree...however, as you know, I am also playing a clearance game with the 710's. I do have pretty good clearance in the front...better than the rears. I may dial in a tad more camber...that is...if I dont eat into my clearance. Oh I have a question about that. Will toe chance if I dial in more camber at the bolt? I dont see how it can with the geometry as is...but that doesnt mean that it cant.

Ride height is higher than I would like...but there is not much I can do about that. The adjusters and coils are the clearance issue at all four corners...and as a result I need them up as high as possible.

[snorky]

That amount of toe out might be better for turn in on an autox course, no?

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by polyol

I would agree...however, as you know, I am also playing a clearance game with the 710's. I do have pretty good clearance in the front...better than the rears. I may dial in a tad more camber...that is...if I dont eat into my clearance. Oh I have a question about that. Will toe chance if I dial in more camber at the bolt? I dont see how it can with the geometry as is...but that doesnt mean that it cant.

Ride height is higher than I would like...but there is not much I can do about that. The adjusters and coils are the clearance issue at all four corners...and as a result I need them up as high as possible.

I think the toe will change.

Thing with the clearance is this: The narrow wheels need more tire clearance than wider wheels. I think the narrow wheels also want more camber (relatively speaking) so there has to be a balance. You just have to see as you go. Remember that both of these parameters are going to change as it warms up. What you see on a 50* day at Coke isn't necessarily what you will see on a 90* day on concrete... or at Coke, for that matter.

You'll just have to adjust rear camber to suit whatever rake you end up with. Since they are both 'going the same way', up in back = more rotation, down in back = less. But in your case, there's a clearance issue with camber, so that has to be considered. Guess that's an example of a "tail wagging dog" adjustment. I mean, it works... it's just different than what you'd be doing were it not for the clearance issues.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by snorky

That amount of toe out might be better for turn in on an autox course, no?

Yeah, but remember that he's on race tires, and also on skinny wheels. In a low-speed, flat situation, the front will initiate really well. Throw in a little more speed, and maybe put the rear-outside on an off-camber surface and all of a sudden the car gets really frisky.

One characteristic of the skinny wheels is to dull the car's response. Moreso, given that's he's on 710's, as opposed to A6's. So that might suggest a more aggressive alignment.

OTOH, my experience with the skinny wheels is that 710's tend to cut loose even more unpredictably.

I think it's just a matter of getting in the ballpark, running the car, and seeing how you like it. There is no one, magic solution.

If he went from his car to mine, with exactly the same front alignment, mine would feel like a pack of wild dogs right from the start, but it also wouldn't turn and bite him as fast. It's kind of a personal thing... you just have to get the car set up the way you personally like it, I think.

[polyol]

Originally Posted by snorky

That amount of toe out might be better for turn in on an autox course, no?

That is what I am hopeing. The courses I run on are really really tight. You are always transisiting...hardly any straight lines.

Back to old codger...yeah I hear you on the clearance. Thing is...up front I have at least 7mm of clearance...and thats on 5mm spacers. I have two sets of 8mm spacers and I can always substute them on. For now I just want to have the smallest spacer necessary to do the job. Basically this...

8mm spacer in the rear gives me 7mm of clearance.

5mm spacer in the front gives me 7mm of clearance.

That is why I am a little more skiddish about the rears...I have no options. Lots of options in the front = more room to adjust camber.

[cpa]

Did you set the plates to full caster? Are you using the OE camber bolt only? I'll be installing the street version of the WL camber plates this weekend, going for an alignemnet next week. Should I set the stock OE bolt to the middle setting, do gross adjustments with the plates, then fine tune one way or the other with the bolt?

[polyol]

Originally Posted by cpa

Did you set the plates to full caster? Are you using the OE camber bolt only? I'll be installing the street version of the WL camber plates this weekend, going for an alignemnet next week. Should I set the stock OE bolt to the middle setting, do gross adjustments with the plates, then fine tune one way or the other with the bolt?

I have the plates right in the middle between full negative and 0...literally dead center. I could gain more caster by going all the way to 0...but I have 6.2 degrees of caster allready...good enough.

I am using the OE camber bolt only. I have it set at 0...with the lobe facing straight up.

Should I set the stock OE bolt to the middle setting, do gross adjustments with the plates, then fine tune one way or the other with the bolt

You can not do individual adjustments at the plates. They have to be set equally. Setting the plates at different positions relative to each other can make your car unstable. You will want to set the plates equally and adjust camber at the bolt to match up camber at both sides. I would start in the middle with the plates and fine tune with the bolts...unless you want to run max caster. What do you plan on doing...all street or track too?

How To: Setup your Street alignment the right way. » t3h_Clap’s Wheel33tist Blog

[polyol]

Here is a scan of my specs...notice that the camber is different one side vs another...thats because im not in the car...it make a bit of difference.

[cpa]

Thanks for the post, I may not have worded it the same way but I agree with you on the camber plates being set the same, then using the OE bolt to get them equal/fine tune.

This is primarily for auto-x, not my daily driver. I posted another thread "STU Alignment Recommendations" with current and planned setup.

[polyol]

Originally Posted by cpa

Thanks for the post, I may not have worded it the same way but I agree with you on the camber plates being set the same, then using the OE bolt to get them equal/fine tune.

This is primarily for auto-x, not my daily driver. I posted another thread "STU Alignment Recommendations" with current and planned setup.

If your car is mainly for autox...then I would try to get max caster at the plates and try for -3 degrees or so at the bolt. If you cant get -3 degrees at the bolt then I would compromise caster for camber. That said...do you have any clearance issues with the tires/rims you are running.

[hard ride]

So yu have 6 deg castor just with the plates? I have an ALK, is there any way to get more castor without using plates?

[twiSTies]

wow! that's a nice amount of caster, congrats!

[MGizzle]

That much toe out can hurt you under braking pretty bad and even worst if you are trail braking a lot. The other thing is that these cars are very stiff wheel rate wise IMO and that turn in transient is very short for your inside wheel to help a lot. That outer wheel is going to be more of a player during turning and with that toe out it could hurt you.

I am really curious how this is going to work out for you because I always hated toe on my cars. I like to play with other things like ARB's and pressures before messing with toe. That is one tricky SOB.