[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by Andy STI

I agree completely with you Dan and Ace.

Now Dan, answer the OP's question. You're one of the only people who have used both.

Andy

I think it's a matter of adjustability. They are both going to perform very well on the track and the street. For me personally, I think the ability to adjust damping and rebound independently is fairly important. But, if you are worried about screwing up there is certainly something to be said for the simplicity of the Ohlins. In terms of comfort, they feel very similar. However, given the same spring rates, I think the T2's would be more comfortable on the street. The 500/400 rates feel almost as smooth as the standard rates on the Ohlins. So to make a long story short, I think the T2's are more versatile, but the Ohlins are easier to set up for the inexperienced user. They are both excellent options for a dual purpose street/track setup. I hope that somewhat answers the OP's question.

[stretch]

Originally Posted by MKTURBO

is thier going to be that much of a benefit to going with a 2-way vs. a 1-way like the ohlins sportlines?

The most important thing is that the damper matches the spring somewhere within that range of adjustment. Some don't. Others do. Once the damper matches the springs (you've found that perfect setting), you probably won't touch the adjuster again.

RCE's might be an exception since they are two-ways; you might firm up bump resistance at the track. This assumes there's no crosstalk with rebound, otherwise things get rather complicated. In that sense, I agree two-ways are for tinkerers.

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

We have the dyno graphs and I have spent countless hours analyzing the data. KW will not allow us to release the graphs to the public and that is their prerogative, but I can tell you that they are very capable of your "magic" critical damping rates based on properly matching the settings to the spring rates. I find it laughable that you can develop an opinion about these coilovers based on rumors and calculations that you create sitting behind a computer.

So KW is holding you guys back? I was told (by Myles) that you were doing it yourselves so that the entire industry didn't learn your special damper rates.

I'm sure a few people would chip in $25 to get one dyno'd independent of your company. I would. Hell, if they're so good, I'd probably buy a set. (FWIW, I was seriously considering a set before the coil bind fiasco, then I went with Ground Control instead so I could measure my own stuff.)

Just as it's KW's prerogative to not release a dyno, it's mine to not recommend a product without one.

Originally Posted by ace996

Do you believe the rhetoric and mathturbational theory? That $hit.

You may laugh at the theory, but numbers are factual. Some reputable products are over 70% critically damped through their range; this is a fact. What you disagree with is the interpretation of these facts.

My interpretation is that of many racing engineers who have published that exceeding 70% critically damped is nearly always a bad thing. As much as I repeat this stuff, I'm just a messenger.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by stretch

So KW is holding you guys back? I was told (by Myles) that you were doing it yourselves so that the entire industry didn't learn your special damper rates.

I'm sure a few people would chip in $25 to get one dyno'd independent of your company. I would. Hell, if they're so good, I'd probably buy a set. (FWIW, I was seriously considering a set before the coil bind fiasco, then I went with Ground Control instead so I could measure my own stuff.)

Just as it's KW's prerogative to not release a dyno, it's mine to not recommend a product without one.

Myles wasn't too keen on the idea of releasing the dynos, but when we recently had a discussion about it and decided it might be time to do so, we checked with KW first and they did not approve. We don't have an agreement in writing but it's not worth risking our relationship with KW to release the graphs, so we won't. If you or anybody else has them tested independently, that's a different story. We have nothing to hide, it's just a matter of keeping the manufacturer happy. I have no problem with you not recommending our products, but there's a big difference between not recommending, and specifically recommending against them. Even worse is mentioning an unsubstantiated rumor about a problem, and then insinuating that we know about it and won't fix it. That's just uncalled for, and the main reason for my rant.

We have recently made the decision to be a bit more open and forthcoming with information about our products (hence the release of the rates on our springs) but the decision to release dyno plots for the T2's is simply not ours to make.

[stretch]

So you're saying there's no problem with the valving on certain rear T2's currently in use? I wasn't making it up, but it wasn't my place to come forward either since it's not my problem. Regardless, it's not like I didn't also criticize the other products I mentioned. Everything has a pro and a con, it's just that few people talk about the latter.

Prodrive really did do a study showing that twin-tubes don't hold up. I run 'em; I'm fine. I also don't track my car on racing compound tires regularly, so the study didn't really apply to me. That's why I asked the OP. Sounds to me like he'll be on street tires, though.

I've noticed the new "openness" of RCE and I am extremely happy to hear (and see) it. Kudos. Since I'm local, can I borrow a set to get dyno'd? I'm not even sure who does it locally, though. It's funny, there's a dyno of the KW V3's on Nasioc already and has been for years. Perhaps you could leak out the dyno charts in a unofficial looking Excel spreadsheet!

[CGMDan]

Originally Posted by stretch

My interpretation is that of many racing engineers who have published that exceeding 70% critically damped is nearly always a bad thing. As much as I repeat this stuff, I'm just a messenger.

You parroting what others have said isn't an issue, but when YOU run some numbers thru a calculator that YOU created and try to tell others that it's gospel, thats not being a messenger anymore. You also have habit of creating a multi paged stir and then somewhere find out your data was bit off. Oops! But because you like to create threads so others can see what a mathamatician you are, that fact seems to get buried by whatever new thread you've created.

[stretch]

^ Aye, I'll 'fess up to that and I certainly don't try to hide it. Heck, I encourage people to check my numbers and wish it happened more often. I collaborate now with a few people who are, frankly, smarter than I am. You'll notice the newest thread 'o data didn't originate from me at all.

If I didn't post all the stuff I've posted (including the mistakes on the way) I'd never have learned as much as I have now.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by stretch

So you're saying there's no problem with the valving on certain rear T2's currently in use? I wasn't making it up, but it wasn't my place to come forward either since it's not my problem. Regardless, it's not like I didn't also criticize the other products I mentioned. Everything has a pro and a con, it's just that few people talk about the latter.

Prodrive really did do a study showing that twin-tubes don't hold up. I run 'em; I'm fine. I also don't track my car on racing compound tires regularly, so the study didn't really apply to me. That's why I asked the OP. Sounds to me like he'll be on street tires, though.

I've noticed the new "openness" of RCE and I am extremely happy to hear (and see) it. Kudos. Since I'm local, can I borrow a set to get dyno'd? I'm not even sure who does it locally, though. It's funny, there's a dyno of the KW V3's on Nasioc already and has been for years. Perhaps you could leak out the dyno charts in a unofficial looking Excel spreadsheet!

No there is no problem with the valving. There were a couple of defective rears (from the same batch) awhile back, which we replaced with new ones and sent the old ones back to KW for analysis. That was a hardware issue though, and a couple of isolated cases, not a design flaw.

We can't participate in any way in dynoing a set of T2's, but like I said, what you do on your own time is your business and once the product is out there, there's nothing we can do about it. We don't want to step on any toes so we have to remain uninvolved as far as that goes. But like I said, we have nothing to hide. Based on my examination of the charts KW gave us, they look very good.

[twiSTies]

I feel the truth of this matter is somewhere in the middle like usual. Stretch provides us with a side to suspension tuning that an ad and marketing simply can't, which is beneficial to those of us that appreciate technical knowledge about a product. On the other side of the fence, are the guys who couldn't be bothered with the numbers behind it because it works.

I'm very happy that RCE released their spring rates, and I look forward to seeing more of the engineering behind RaceComp Engineering.

Stretch is right about the BC issues, I'll go into them more in a separate thread, I'm about finished with getting a true feel for their capability and inability.

T2's are my #1 choice for upgrading, which is coming down the pike.

OP= If you want the best track setup for the money, go with the T2's. There isn't anything else on the market in that price range that competes with their adjustability and tunability (maybe a custom DA Koni setup, but I think that ends up costing more).

[Lutfy]

Originally Posted by stretch

The Ohlins Sportlines look overdamped to me. The Ohlins Club Sports don't look quite as bad, but have limited suspension travel. I wouldn't buy either. Experienced people seem to like them but I think there's room for improvement. Perhaps this is because the two sets were designed by and for the Japanese domestic market, and they tend to like things overdamped. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, though, since I'm just looking at the numbers and haven't tried them.

I have similar reservations towards RCE, but for a different reason. Since RCE won't release dyno's, we have no way of knowing how they truly perform. Like the Ohlins, most people seem to like RCE's valving. However, after seeing the Ohlins valving, I'm skeptical of even the most well-received dampers. I've additionally heard some rumors about faulty valving in the rear T2 coilovers that has not being fixed by RCE, but I don't know how common that is. Hopefully those experiencing this problem will start coming forth rather than keeping it secret (like RCE's coil bind fiasco).

You didn't mention if you'd be on R-compounds when at the track. I've also seen some data suggesting that twin-tube struts don't hold up well long-term with r-compound tires. Prodrive collected this data; I believe it is reliable. Twin-tubes will be fine on street tires, though. (RCE, KW, Koni, Ground Control, Zzyzx are all twin-tube, while Ohlins, AST, Whiteline, TiC, and Bilstein are monotube.)

I've also been PM'd by a number of people experiencing malfunctions in their BC Racing, Stance, and other inexpensive coilovers. I know you didn't ask about them, but lots of other people do.

I'd wait and see what the TiC coilover dynos look like. They look extremely promising, enough so that I've preordered the first set. The set uses the valving from AST's very expensive 3-way competition coilover set, but removes some adjustability to keep the price down. Suspension travel is extremely high and they're the only coilover to use Swift's ultra linear springs.

I'm also hoping to see some dyno plots of the Bilstein PSS9's because anecdotally I have reason to believe they are one of the few coilovers that are not overdamped. Maybe I'm wrong, but they may be a good budget option. The problem with the Bilstein PSS9's is that they cannot be raised to normal ride heights for the winter, but this may not be an issue for you.

Stretch,

I am just curious as to how you percieve dyno charts per say. These are mass produced suspension with an optimum range (eg 500-600lbs etc.). If a shock is overdamped (if you feel that way) you can throw in stiffer springs.

You have to remember that a SOLID suspension would run you $6-7K (competition worthy that meets all your needs, comes with a dyno graph, support to help you with the spring selection etc.). For $2K~ what we are getting is not bad at all. If you think there is room for improvement, can you suggest as to WHERE in real life this would help? Eg. lap time comparison, sector comparison etc. In my 15 years worth of track experience, perfection so far has not been found yet.

Sorry but I am not going to buy that the twin tube struts dont hold up to R Comp use. Where is Prodrive's data and if Prodrive really did mention it, I'll laugh right on their face too. The mono tube design (while effective) is kinda old school. Twin tube with seperate compression/rebound is used by controlling flow through small holes instead of forcing past traditional shim-stacks (which mono tube uses, again not a bad design at all and I am all for Bilsteins).

So what you are saying KW, Koni, JRZ, Moton dont hold up well with long term use with R Comps. Sorry but that is BS. Bernardo Payet (http://www.payetmotorsport.com/) ran KW Variant 3s on his race car for years without issues (or having any rebuild done) and was RIDICULOUSLY fast. Got pole at the NASA GTS challenge a while back etc etc. He was running 1100lbs front and 1000lbs rear FYI with no revalving (on Hoosier tires). This is real world feedback. BTW Bernardo now has an Evo 9 with Ohlins and just set a record at Road Atlanta. 1:36.9

You cannot compare the above mentioned shocks to BC Racing, Stance etc and just because their adjustments are going south, the twin tube design is also faulty.
And regarding what you said about "The most important thing is that the damper matches the spring somewhere within that range of adjustment. Some don't. Others do. Once the damper matches the springs (you've found that perfect setting), you probably won't touch the adjuster again."


Well on paper it may look good. If you think you have matched your suspension would never touch the adjuster again, sure dont. But you wont be fast for sure and I can promise you that. Think of Sebring. What you run at Road Atlanta cannot be replicated at that track and WOULD need to tinker quite a bit. As much as I loved my Bilsteins (matched for my springs on my previous race car), the car was hella bouncy and I wished I had a double adjustable suspension.

What is your racing/real world background?


Thanks in advance.


Lutfy

PS: A very happy KW V3 user (on the STi).

[Lutfy]

Oh on a seperate note, most racers (VERY Fast ones at least) I know do not get into nitty gritty of dyno charts, etc. They care for real world experience.

In this case (since I come from BMW Club Racing) they pick up the phone, discuss their needs with tuners (I like Bimmerworld) and get a product, throw it on and get real world data.

I would let Bimmerworld (in this case RCE) do what they do best. I am a driver and want to focus on driving rather than spend countless hours under microscope on brake pad material make up etc.

Lutfy

[ravenwrx]

[quote=Lutfy;1588402]Oh on a seperate note, most racers (VERY Fast ones at least) I know do not get into nitty gritty of dyno charts, etc. They care for real world experience.

In this case (since I come from BMW Club Racing) they pick up the phone, discuss their needs with tuners (I like Bimmerworld) and get a product, throw it on and get real world data.

I would let Bimmerworld (in this case RCE) do what they do best. I am a driver and want to focus on driving rather than spend countless hours under microscope on brake pad material make up etc.

Lutfy[/quo

Very nicely said, I am the same way

[4banger]

With products on the market like intakes that make your car run lean, numerous springs that ride the bump stops, coilovers that coilbind, swaybars that break control arms, headers that crack over and over, engines with clearances unmeasured and vendors who "design" and sell prodcucts that they don't even understand the function of, I personally won't buy anything that I don't completely understand the design and function of. If you're just buying setups off of someone's recommendation and they haven't done all of their homework, it is the buyer that is the real looser. Not everyone has the money or opportunity to go through half a dozen suspension iterations before they finally descide on what works for them. If you are lucky enough to have someone that you trust to make your decisions for you, then that's great because you'll save a lot of time figuring out what works. Other people enjoy finding things out for themselves by analyzing how things work. To the origional poster - you need to figure out which path you want to take and go with it. There are good vendors who will set you up with something that works. If you want to geek out on numbers, you can find plenty of threads that will help you with that, too.

[4banger]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

We have the dyno graphs and I have spent countless hours analyzing the data. KW will not allow us to release the graphs to the public and that is their prerogative, but I can tell you that they are very capable of your "magic" critical damping rates based on properly matching the settings to the spring rates.

Not to poke a stick in an already angry nest of hornets, but didn't you just prove stretch right? All that we have been looking for if for someone to show that they have something that performs well and that has properly matched springs and dampers.

[ace996]

Originally Posted by 4banger

Not everyone has the money or opportunity to go through half a dozen suspension iterations before they finally descide on what works for them. If you are lucky enough to have someone that you trust to make your decisions for you, then that's great because you'll save a lot of time figuring out what works.

Great point, but doing all the math isn't going to tell you what's best for you either...you're still going to have to take a step and actually "do" something. All the previous equations/math threads that I've read would lead one to believe that my suspension shouldn't work... and I just happen to have proof that it does...actual, datalogged and video'd proof.

The great thing about dealing with solid companies that have been around for a while is that they've done the work...that's what they do. Ohlins knows a thing or two about building struts/shocks...no worries there. KW knows a thing or two about building stuts/shocks...again, no worries. Whiteline knows a few things about how to make a car handle well, too...

Then there's asking and researching opinions from those who actually use the products...they race their cars, bang the strips, and have tried the multiple set-ups. The beautiful thing about the WRX chassis is that it's pretty much all been done before. I was very lucky to call Myles Williams from the beginning of my build, as I had a good idea of what to do, but wanted to consult with someone who's been there/done that. And that has made all the difference...

Again, as I've said before, you can't go wrong with either unit...but the T2s are the best bargain going...double/adjustable and reservoirs...and stainless!!!

Good luck,
TomK

[ace996]

Originally Posted by 4banger

Not to poke a stick in an already angry nest of hornets, but didn't you just prove stretch right? All that we have been looking for if for someone to show that they have something that performs well and that has properly matched springs and dampers.

Does "show" only mean a dyno plot? Do dataloggs "show" you anything? Does video of wet and dry laps "show" you anything?

As Lufty so elegantly put it....you're overdamped?- then mount a stiffer spring, 'cuz your springs are too soft. You want to run 300lb springs?...ditch the coilover idea because then they're a waste.

I'm out...